Personal Qualification ?

[RicInOR]

What do you consider to be your (personal) qualification with X (say carry handgun, or hunting rifle etc.) ?

In the wake of recent terrorist events, my friend and TV personality Michael Bane proposed that defensive shooters should be capable of making a head shot at 25 yards and a body shot at 50 yards. His reasoning: This level of accuracy could be necessary to stop a killer, and he believes armed citizens should ensure their weapons and training are up to the task. I agree with Bane and consider this a training challenge requiring us to sort out our gear and to step up our training.

-- Ed Head at Gunsite
Skills Check: The Bane Drill


I know I can meet this 'Bane' standard with my carry gun, because we shoot these distances at Steel frequently. (ok, ok, more likely 35-40 yds frequently, with 50 being rare given the group and layout of the bays) 18x24 target = body, 10 or 8in round = head.


If you hunt, I believe you have an ethical duty to shoot only at distances where you know you will kill the animal.

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[albin25]

High standards never hurt if they're based on reality but, that said....
If you shoot someone with your sidearm at 50 yards.... good luck with convincing a D.A./jury that it was self defense. Yeah, you can practice at those distances but reality might be closer to changing those "yards" to "feet".
I'm happy with point-shooting consistent one-handed, weak-handed in a 10" circle at 15 yards quickly, un-stressed by someone shooting at me…. but that's just me now (I'm 65 and don't expect the years to be kind as time continues doing it's thing).
Of course when competitive league shooting, well, that is a whole different thing.

 

[Joe13]

Depends on what gun I'm carrying...

Stock G17 - most likely not 100% of the time

Stock Para 1911 - yea I could make those shots 99% of the time


99.99% of the time there is cover to get behind at that distance though and I don't foresee any need to engage at 50 yards.

There is the rare chance you need your gun and a super rare chance your going to be in some shooting spree where you gotta make a long shot like that imo.

 

[Aero Denezol]

High standards never hurt if they're based on reality but, that said....
If you shoot someone with your sidearm at 50 yards.... good luck with convincing a D.A./jury that it was self defense.

If I remember the CCW class correctly, I think you can shoot to save someone else's life, i.e., if someone down the street is emptying mags into a storefront, or trying to set fire to a theater, or detonating a series of bombs - I believe you can used deadly force to stop it.

A 25 yard head shot I can probably do with my carry pistol.. but I've never tried shooting 50 yards it, because I never considered I might need to (or be justified in doing so). I have tried my revolver and CZ at 50 yards, and I can hit the 12"x12" paper with those two, unfortunately they are a little too big to carry.

 

[thorborg]

"In the wake of recent terrorist events, my friend and TV personality Michael Bane proposed that defensive shooters should be capable of making a head shot at 25 yards and a body shot at 50 yards."
I couldn't agree more unless someone is intending to make it some sort of law on civilians.
Then I cry foul.
Self defense has no business being regulated, be it method, ability or obligations to look after others.

I'm sure there are many who have bought and even carry a gun without ever having shot it. As scary as that thought is to me, I would do nothing to impede their right to do so.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I like the train at close quarters, say the distances of hallways & rooms inside of my house & the 21' rule repetitively & instinctively.
If I happen to be in a situation such as what the OP mentioned, 25 & 50 yards then I'd have to feel damn confident to engage.
I'm not Rambo so I'm not going to try & save the world, just my friends & family.

 

[11Charlie]

I like the train at close quarters, say the distances of hallways & rooms inside of my house & the 21' rule repetitively & instinctively.
If I happen to be in a situation such as what the OP mentioned, 25 & 50 yards then I'd have to feel damn confident to engage.
I'm not Rambo so I'm not going to try & save the world, just my friends & family.

Exactly this. let the Leo's do the job they are supposed to. At a certain point we could do more harm than good.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I have a problem with any one having "Expectations" or requirements of marksmanship as a condition of CC'ing! That's a sure way to remove rights from law abiding citizens who have the right to carry!
Now the notion of a terror event and the requirement of making a head shot at extended ranges with a pistol is ludicrous, even those of us who can make that kind of precision shot, it's just not a plausible or likely situation! A center mass hit at extended distances is more likely if the shooter has the time to draw, aim, and fire. My main concern is to first protect my self and loved ones, then if possible, consider taking a shot! Every one here knows I carry a Super Scary Death Ray Killing Machine that no mortal man should be allowed to own or carry, Yes, I can make a head shot when I'm calm and rested, and the Adrenalin hasn't kicked in. When it all goes to hell, I'm gonna be wishing I had a rifle over my shoulder which sadly isn't accepted in todays society, so I would be forced to taking that shot with what I DO have on me. One of the reasons I chose a 10 mm auto and a full size pistol to handle it. All that said, i'm not likely to even try a head shot at those distances, instead going for quantity center mass hits, even against armor, and taking my chances with that! If I can put a Tango on the ground, then I have done what was needed and the LEO or GOD can sort him out!

 

[etrain16]

I'm assuming the intent here is to have the ability to hit those targets, under controlled conditions, with a static target and a static shooter, under no duress. If so, I don't see an issue with working on meeting those goals. And maybe the intent is that by hitting those targets, at those distances, you are more assured to hit your target when the sh!t hits the fan, in a likely closer engagement.

As others have mentioned, I have a hard time picturing a self-defense scenario, with my pistol, where I'd be engaging at 50 yards - that's half a football field away. Even 25 yards seems a bit on the edge to me as well. I will qualify my statement though that any number of unforeseen factors could certainly change that assessment.

My intent is not to be able to draw on an attacker that's that far away - I'd rather try to escape/evade if at all possible, if time and circumstances allow. That said, I've taken pistol shots out to 100 yards and hit a standard target, but could I do it repeatedly and with good accuracy? I guess I'd have to test it more to be certain. I believe the furthest we shot at the defensive handgun courses I attended were out to maybe 20 yards, max.

What would really be interesting is what targets you can hit while you're moving, the target is moving and you're under extreme duress, adrenaline pumping, protecting a couple of other folks (such as family) and then see what you can hit. I guarantee it won't be anything like a head-shot at 25 yards or body shot at 50 yards.

Still, practice and training are a great idea, and I think pretty much all of us likely could use more of it.


Otherwise you might have a scenario like this:

Bad Guy (BG) stands with a knife at 52 yards....

Defensive Carry Guy (DCG): draws gun, yells "stay back man! I've got a gun and I'll use it if you come any closer!"

BG: looks puzzled, "I don't see anything in your hand! What do you have?! Is that supposed to be some kind of gun??"

DCG: looks at gun, "A S&W M&P 9c!"

BG: steps forward 1 yard, "I don't know man, I don't see it!"

DCG: looks startled, "It's right here in my hand, look!"

BG: steps forward another yard, "nope, don't see it, looks like a phone! That's not one of them fancy folding phone guns is it? You sure you can make that shot?"

DCG: firms stance, "No! It's a real gun! Not another step or I'll drop you!"

BG: "like this?", takes one step

DCG: bam! bam! (double tap)

BG: listens to bullets whiz by, "Nice try, you could probably use more practice! I'll give you another 5 yards..."

 

[11Charlie]

Bad Guy (BG) stands with a knife at 52 yards....

Defensive Carry Guy (DCG): draws gun, yells "stay back man! I've got a gun and I'll use it if you come any closer!"

BG: looks puzzled, "I don't see anything in your hand! What do you have?! Is that supposed to be some kind of gun??"

DCG: looks at gun, "A S&W M&P 9c!"

BG: steps forward 1 yard, "I don't know man, I don't see it!"

DCG: looks startled, "It's right here in my hand, look!"

BG: steps forward another yard, "nope, don't see it, looks like a phone! That's not one of them fancy folding phone guns is it? You sure you can make that shot?"

DCG: firms stance, "No! It's a real gun! Not another step or I'll drop you!"

BG: "like this?", takes one step

DCG: bam! bam! (double tap)

BG: listens to bullets whiz by, "Nice try, you could probably use more practice! I'll give you another 5 yards..."

 

[Cerberus Group]

The Bane drill is not bad. Anyone who has taken any of my classes knows I'm all for 6" circles. But I disagree with the 10". As long as you get a good view either full front or back, you're ok. But have the person turn a bit, or even full side view, and your 10" shrinks down a lot.

Life is not flat, so include angles etc in your shooting drills.

I wouldn't discount a 50 yard shot as being non-defensible in court, but the use is narrow. One example would be an active shooter in your neighborhood. Protecting your own life or that of another...you're good to go. But they must be active at the time.

The qualification I use is working on initial engagements from the holster, ready position, and aimed in...other than grabbing a gun, these are the only three positions you'll be in if you need to act.

Add in verbal challenges if feasible, and work on perfecting the presentation to the threat without having to think about it. So every time the pistol comes to the eye, the sights are aligned, the finger is already on the trigger and taking up slack, and you're ready to go. Anything less is wasted motion, which in turn puts you behind the 8 ball.

I'm not a shot-timer type...but they do add stress and give you an idea where you are, and where you need to go. I've had people run perfect scores etc., until the timer is added in, then they go to pieces...even when I tell them, I'm not concerned about time, I'm just seeing where they are for efficiency.

Sooooo, target distances and times;

Aimed in: 3-20 yards .3 sec
Ready Position: 3-20 yards .5 - .75 sec
From the holster: 3-20 yards 1.75 - 2.0 sec

I have had a lot of people come to my classes and call BS on the above, but then have them do it, not perfect but well on their way within the first day.

In my opinion I've not found many other drills that will replicate initial calls for engagement when forced to do so.

 

[po18guy]

An ADD/OCD level of manipulation of and familiarization with the weapon under situations of low or no stress. It is a form of training - programming essentially - which will be subconsciously reverted to should it ever hit the fan.

 

[Camelfilter]

We can, at the range.

Under duress? On a moving perhaps/partially concealed target, with innocents also running around?

Hmmm now the threat would have to be very very bad to attempt to shoot.

Plausible, yet unlikely.

Requirement for CHL? Absolutely no farkin free-kin way!!!

Aside from being cost prohibitive for a major portion of the population, could far too easily abused based on any number of "reasons". Oh the person who does the scoring is out for 3 months (if you are whatever demographic applying). Etc etc.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Allowing someone else to set a "standard" for you and your situation , is "Iffy" in my mind.
What do they know about you , your lifestyle , your habits , your physical ability , eyesight , etc...?
Everyone's tactical and strategic needs and or demands are different , it would be wise to not get " hung up " on someone else's "magic number " of yards or feet and level of proficiency.

Should you practice and keep up your skills... ? yes.
Should you try to fine tune and expand your skills ? , again yes.

Taking a class , learning more , different and maybe even better methods and techniques of a skill is always good...but you must tailor what you learn , to what is actually useful for you.
Andy

 

[po18guy]

EDIT: I note that Michael Bane's opinion was on a personal, competence level. I saw no advocacy for regulatory requirements(?)

However, even giving voice to such ideas only plants worse ideas in the pointy heads of the disarmament crowd.

Nevertheless, I might as well include my original comment that he shot his mouth off with little apparent accuracy. What about those who live in an apartment and 50 yards is 4 neighbors away? By extension, wouldn't his line of thinking require sights on belly guns, "just in case" the perp was 50 yards away? That old canard of just in case is a slippery slope.

 

[Cerberus Group]

You'll have to fight that which is dealt you...not what you trained for.

As I've stated before, in sitting in on OIS debriefs and interviews with both Officers and civilians, I haven't had one person ever tell me...Steve, that was an advanced gunfight I was in. What I get...My training is sorely lacking, and didn't prepare me for that.

Search video sites and look at shootings, both LEO and civilian...and pick out the "Advanced" skills. We have to respond with what is dealt us. Which is why I don't believe in advanced shooting/firearms skills...there are skills not yet learned.

I agree with Andy, there are no standards in gunfights or shootings, hard to put some on someone when the possibilities are endless. Once standards are applied, then the thinking box gets smaller.

Getting back to the OP and the thread. There are endless drills one can use, I use what I and my instructors have been involved in, and what I see in every gunfight/shooting...that call for engagement from the three positions...that's the minimum for me.