Oregon CHL myths?

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So I finally got my chl and Ive known some friends who have had them in the past. They weren't really firearm guys just kinda wanted a gun for self defense, and took everything the class instructor told them as fact.

Ive heard some things about laws here that I cant really find laws on the books for but on the other hand I haven't weeded through ALL the laws in Oregon. Ill name a few myths Ive heard that I haven't confirmed and if anyone has an idea if they are actually myths or facts let me know. Also feel free to post myths you've heard that have been debunked.

1. If you are out and someone sees your concealed and happens to call the cops you will lose your license for NOT concealing properly.

2. You are not allowed to use your firearm in defense of a third party that is not directly related to you by blood or intimacy.

3. Most self defense cases are lost when deadly force is used ( specifically Multnomah)

4. Most of the state parks or hiking trails in the Gorge are "No firearms permitted" even though no signs are up at the entrance to the trail.

5. You cannot remove your Fire arm in the car and place it (lets say between your seat and center console) and it still be considered concealed.

Thats just a few I have heard. Im sure there is more I cant think of on the top of my head. Any clarification from some guys who have carried longer?

Anyone have any arm chair internet lawyer myths they cant debunk or have debunked?
 
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How about this mindset?

A permit authorizes me to use a gun to defend myself and loved ones?

To me. A permit keeps you from being in violation of laws concerning carrying guns.
That's it.
I don't need [And can't get] permission from the state to use a gun.

Only the situation can give you a green light to use it.
With or without a permit.

You just better get in right. o_O
 
OP
13BWayToBe
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How about this mindset?

A permit authorizes me to use a gun to defend myself and loved ones?

To me. A permit keeps you from being in violation of laws concerning carrying guns.
That's it.
I don't need [And can't get] permission from the state to use a gun.

Only the situation can give you a green light to use it.
With or without a permit.

You just better get in right. o_O
Oh, trust me I'm all for that. I just know how ignorant some people can be (even LEO) about gun laws. Id just rather know I'm in the right as opposed to wondering and citing my rights and getting branded as a crazy sovereign citizen by an ignorant cop.

Man ... I really need more coffee and a trip to the eye doctor.
When reading the thread title I swore I read : Oregon Cthulhu myths ...:eek::D

Nothing really important to add here ... So I'm slinking off.
Andy
In response to this: ia ia cthulhu ftaghn
 

washagonian

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GREAT questions. I've done a lot of personal research on these issues and here are my thoughts and my thoughts are not always correct. It would be helpful if others would chime in.

I am not an attorney, so you should always consult one if you must have a definite answer beyond a doubt. Also, reference Oregon Revised Statute # 166.250 for a lot of information on possession and carry.

I've inserted my thoughts after each question below in your post. Hope they are helpful.


So I finally got my chl and Ive known some friends who have had them in the past. They weren't really firearm guys just kinda wanted a gun for self defense, and took everything the class instructor told them as fact.

Ive heard some things about laws here that I cant really find laws on the books for but on the other hand I haven't weeded through ALL the laws in Oregon. Ill name a few myths Ive heard that I haven't confirmed and if anyone has an idea if they are actually myths or facts let me know. Also feel free to post myths you've heard that have been debunked.

1. If you are out and someone sees your concealed and happens to call the cops you will lose your license for NOT concealing properly.
FALSE: The police may still be called and you may still be contacted, detained, searched, your weapon secured for officer safety while they check you out in the computer database system. The officers may encourage you to conceal more effectively. But if your weapon was still in it's carry holster then you did not deploy and thus there would be no valid argument for blandishment. If your firearm was confiscated by the police, then definitely consult an attorney to nip the process in the bud.

2. You are not allowed to use your firearm in defense of a third party that is not directly related to you by blood or intimacy.
FALSE: IF - and this is important - you believe that an innocent third party is in IMMEDIATE danger from someone with the INTENT AND CAPABILITY to inflict upon them GRIEVOUS (look up definition of grievous to be sure) BODILY HARM OR DEATH then you have the OPTION but NOT the OBLIGATION to use your firearm to defend them from that harm or death. IMMEDIATE - INTENT AND CAPABILITY - GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH - these three criteria must be present before you make the decision to deploy your firearm. And even then the challenge in coming onto a situation COLD where you don't know the individuals involved is that what might look like an attack might be an undercover police officer trying to make an arrest - or mental health professionals trying to subdue a mental health client from further harming him/herself. If in doubt, don't use your firearm, try some other way to involve yourself - even if that is retreating and calling 911.

3. Most self defense cases are lost when deadly force is used ( specifically Multnomah)
DON'T KNOW: There are probably a lot of cases lost because the person using their firearm was not trained well and didn't consider the issues I referenced above in #2.

4. Most of the state parks or hiking trails in the Gorge are "No firearms permitted" even though no signs are up at the entrance to the trail.
First, take a look at this article: PROHIBITED PLACES
It is an updated discussion on various myths about concealed carry in Oregon. It doesn't discuss parks, but it is worth reading.

Second, as stated above, if you must be absolutely sure, consult an attorney. That being said, most of the archaic - and newer - Oregon state park regulations reference open carry. My understanding is that the Oregon Firearms Laws say that if I fall within the concealed carry parameters (i.e., I have an Oregon Concealed Handgun License) then I meet an exemption clause in that law and I can carry concealed in the parks because I'm not open carrying. Even if I have a CHL, if I decide to open carry then I need to comply with the park's firearm regulations. But carrying concealed with a CHL exempts me from those open carry regs. Again, consult an attorney.

Many federal parks restrict firearm possession and the state CHL does NOT supersede those regulations, so I typically do NOT conceal carry in a federal park.

An interesting note: did you now that you CAN conceal carry in the PDX airport, up to the metal detector (they're obviously not going to let you board with your gun on your person). Also you CANNOT conceal carry into a federal post office. In fact, you cannot have a gun on the premises, so if you conceal carry, drive to the P.O., park in the P.O. parking lot, remove your pistol and lock it in your vehicle and then go into the post office and conduct business, you are still in violation of the law because it states that you cannot possess a firearm on the PROPERTY, which includes your locked pistol in your car in the lot. Do a web search and you'll see what I'm talking about. So, when I go to the P.O. I lock my pistol in the truck and park across the street.



5. You cannot remove your Fire arm in the car and place it (lets say between your seat and center console) and it still be considered concealed.
... check with an attorney caveat ... If I unholster my pistol and put it in between the seat and center console there are a couple of things active here:
If you remove your firearm from your person and put it somewhere in the vehicle where it is visible, you need to comply with the active open carry laws in whatever jurisdiction you're driving through - because at the time the firearm is NOT concealed.

One could say that in this example the gun is - for all intents and purposes - concealed in that position. So, I'd better have my CHL on me if I'm stopped by LEO.

When I am in possession (license is on my person) of my CHL it is my understanding that I CAN have the firearm loaded and within reach in an unlocked storage area within the cab of my vehicle. If I do NOT have my CHL in my possession then I need to have the firearm locked in the trunk, or in a locked container (if I don't have a trunk) with the key to that container NOT in the actual lock cylinder. So, for folks who buy those holster systems that connect to the side of the console or seat, I think they better have a CHL because the firearm is definitely concealed - not open carry.

If a firearm is just sticking down between the seat and console and NOT in a retaining holster system I risk loosing control of it if I need it. For example, how many times have we all tried - and failed - to keep something (our wallet, phone, Starbucks straw, etc.) from slipping down between our seat and console. And if we were moving and had to stop quickly, that would also risk dislodging the firearm. Best place to retain a firearm in a vehicle is on my person. I know where it is and how to deploy it quickly. If putting the firearm between the console and the seat is an attempt to secure it off-person in the vehicle as I go do something - like enter the Post Office - and it is stolen, well, I would not want my attorney to have to explain to a civil court my method for securing my firearm in my car.


Thats just a few I have heard. Im sure there is more I cant think of on the top of my head. Any clarification from some guys who have carried longer?

Anyone have any arm chair internet lawyer myths they cant debunk or have debunked?
 
OP
13BWayToBe
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GREAT questions. I've done a lot of personal research on these issues and here are my thoughts and my thoughts are not always correct. It would be helpful if others would chime in.

I am not an attorney, so you should always consult one if you must have a definite answer beyond a doubt. Also, reference Oregon Revised Statute # 166.250 for a lot of information on possession and carry.

I've inserted my thoughts after each question below in your post. Hope they are helpful.

Great info thanks for the lengthy response. Im going to just pay for ccw insurance from uscca I think thats my best option, and be able to consult an attorney from there. Have them do the reading and unencrypting the jargon.
 

The Heretic

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Except for the assertion for the parks and Multnomah county cases, I am fairly certain all of those assertions are false.

Some parks, especially national parks, do have regulations prohibiting the carrying of, or at least the discharge of firearms, some do not. The best way to be sure is to do some googling and maybe asking an official (although as pointed out, officials would rather repeat a myth they heard than say "I am not sure, let me get back to you", especially if they are a LEO - the latter sometimes having insecure authoritarian tendencies in my experience).

For the other assertions, it is fairly easy to google relatively authoritative answers and the specific laws.
 
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Im going to just pay for ccw insurance from uscca I think thats my best option, and be able to consult an attorney from there. Have them do the reading and unencrypting the jargon.
well your on the right track but consulting an attorney over random questions is super expensive. And you will have a lot of random questions over time. Buying USCCA insurance is a good idea, but it might not cover you at all if they determine you were not justified. What you really need to do is study the subject of 'use of deadly force'. Its a long and complicated subject and really a life long discipline.

Start by buying the book "Deadly Force" by Massad Ayoob. It covers everything you need to know from an unencrypted point of view. Its a great book to start with.
 
OP
13BWayToBe
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well your on the right track but consulting an attorney over random questions is super expensive. And you will have a lot of random questions over time. Buying USCCA insurance is a good idea, but it might not cover you at all if they determine you were not justified. What you really need to do is study the subject of 'use of deadly force'. Its a long and complicated subject and really a life long discipline.

Start by buying the book "Deadly Force" by Massad Ayoob. It covers everything you need to know from an unencrypted point of view. Its a great book to start with.
thats been on my reading list. Im just more curious about oregon in general being the politics here. Figured Id consult some people who have been carrying for longer than I have here.
 
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So I finally got my chl and Ive known some friends who have had them in the past. They weren't really firearm guys just kinda wanted a gun for self defense, and took everything the class instructor told them as fact.

Ive heard some things about laws here that I cant really find laws on the books for but on the other hand I haven't weeded through ALL the laws in Oregon. Ill name a few myths Ive heard that I haven't confirmed and if anyone has an idea if they are actually myths or facts let me know. Also feel free to post myths you've heard that have been debunked.

1. If you are out and someone sees your concealed and happens to call the cops you will lose your license for NOT concealing properly.

2. You are not allowed to use your firearm in defense of a third party that is not directly related to you by blood or intimacy.

3. Most self defense cases are lost when deadly force is used ( specifically Multnomah)

4. Most of the state parks or hiking trails in the Gorge are "No firearms permitted" even though no signs are up at the entrance to the trail.

5. You cannot remove your Fire arm in the car and place it (lets say between your seat and center console) and it still be considered concealed.

Thats just a few I have heard. I'm sure there is more I cant think of on the top of my head. Any clarification from some guys who have carried longer?

Anyone have any arm chair internet lawyer myths they cant debunk or have debunked?
1) False. Its actually legal to open carry in prohibited places with your CHL on your person. Yes someone might freak out if they see you printing or whatever but you will not lose your license for printing or accidental exposure if the cops are called.
2) False. But before you consider the option of defending a 3rd party you really should study about what you are going to go thru for even just defending yourself (or your immediate family), learn about this before you make a conscious decision to program your mind to intervene, or even only use physical force in defense of a 3rd party. Start with this true story: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey Booklet.pdf
3) False. Some cases never go to court. Deadly force is a crime that is justified under certain conditions, See ORS 161.219 is the pertinent Oregon law. Study Ability Opportunity and Jeopardy. UseofForce.us: AOJP . (I would agree your more likely to wind up in court in Multnomah co even if it was justified).
4) False. If its open to the public you can lawfully carry there. See ORS 166.250 ORS 166.250 - Unlawful possession of firearms - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes
5) You can with a CHL. See ORS 166.260 ORS 166.260 - Persons not affected by ORS 166.250 - 2015 Oregon Revised Statutes
 

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