LV PD sure screwed up today...

[matt_w]

I followed a thread in another forum on this, and slowly realized that any time I see a police officer I should seek any quick and legal way to get away from him, as many people have been shot without doing anything wrong. This guy came close to getting shot and did nothing wrong. HOME PAGE | KCCN.tv

You may want to add onto that to never let your CCW be seen! At the very least (if you live in the Portland area anyways) is that the cops will be called.

 

[DERGLOCKINMEISTER]

Any additional info on this ? I see everyone is drawing their own conclusions as usual , but I would really like to hear some facts before commenting .

 

[Minisocks]

$10 says the cops went off half-cocked.

It's happened so frequently lately that this is (sadly) a safe bet.

 

[Partsproduction]

Well, without any more information anyone with half a brain can see that the safest thing to do if police approach (Assuming you can't get away safely and legally) would be to lay on the ground face down with hands on head. I see no reason why that would be bad advice and scads of reasons why we know it would have saved someone's life.
As a "civilian" I don't have to go forth into danger, I don't have to walk into a crack house or chase a gang banger through the streets, if I did I too might be trigger happy, if scared enough I might shoot and kill someone who didn't deserve it. I'm glad I'm not a cop, and we need police! We cannot imagine what our lives would be like without them, but this much I'm sure of, if we didn't have police the chances of having to shoot someone in self defense would be much higher.
We should be praying for police, and also that departments with bad cops can get them out quickly, it's the bad ones who kill people and dirty the uniform.

 

[MountainBear]

We should be praying for police, and also that departments with bad cops can get them out quickly

That's the best thing that's been said in this entire thread. Everyone should be able to get behind that statement (unless your a druid or atheist, in which case pray to whoever or no one).

 

[ZachS]

Since you mentioned reality I would say that Zack does have a real personal episode of police brutality of his own. In my opinion there is no better way to judge things than with hands on experience.

Basically... It was just one experience, but pretty telling. "Brutality" is probably pushing it a bit, but the incident would meet any technical definition of the word. All I know is that the facts described in the responsible officer's report were completely different than those in that of his supervisor - who was standing five feet away (as were ten of my friends who also saw something different than what the officer reported). I've seen much worse happen to my "protestor" friends and family over the years.

Some police officers are willing to lie to cover their a**es, and they have good reason to. Simple as that. Just like anyone in any other job, but with worse consequences for the public. I don't understand what's so controversial about this idea. Anybody

I don't need to do any better. I'm doing just fine. You're painting with some pretty broad strokes. With age (usually) comes wisdom.

Petulant? No, I just prefer to give the benefit of the doubt... same as I'd like to receive in a similar situation. Your "the man is out to get us" mentality is a bit skewed from reality, IMO.

I had a couple of cop friends read your recent posts and they had a good chuckle. You can quit looking over your shoulder. They find you amusing but non-threatening.

What the **** are you talking about? You said that my opinions were incorrect, but aren't willing to explain why... Now you're saying that I somehow want to appear threatening to cops? Where did I say that "the man is out to get us?" For that matter, what planet are you from? I'm just saying that cops have an incentive to lie about their actions, and that they actually do sometimes!

 

[MountainBear]

I'm just saying that cops have an incentive to lie about their actions, and that they actually do sometimes!

My problem with what you are saying Zach, is less what you are saying, and more how you are saying it. Not all officer's have incentive to lie about their actions. Quite the opposite often. If you don't tell the truth about your actions, the consequences are often worse than what would have happened if you had simply told the truth to begin with. Some officer's are willing to lie about their actions, and that's a fact and a shame. But do not paint with such a broad stroke as to say all officer's have incentive to lie, as they do not.

 

[CEF1959]

My problem with what you are saying Zach, is less what you are saying, and more how you are saying it. Not all officer's have incentive to lie about their actions. Quite the opposite often. If you don't tell the truth about your actions, the consequences are often worse than what would have happened if you had simply told the truth to begin with. Some officer's are willing to lie about their actions, and that's a fact and a shame. But do not paint with such a broad stroke as to say all officer's have incentive to lie, as they do not.

But cops always have an incentive after an incident, whether an arrest or a confrontation, to justify their actions. So they lie to obtain convictions, and they lie to shield themselves. The only incentive they have to tell the truth against their own personal interest is when they might get caught lying (videotape; an uncooperative fellow-cop; physical evidence inconsistent with testimony). We'd like to think their moral compass would be enough, but it just isn't. That's an important point, so let me emphasize it: We can't count on a cop's individual sense of morality and decency to cause him or her to tell the truth.

Cops lie when they can get away with it, because it's in their interest to do so. So they lie. A lot. Like whenever they want a conviction or to cover their backsides. They're no different from other people in that regard. Except they carry the full force of the state, making their abuses and lies much more significant in effects.

 

[MountainBear]

But cops always have an incentive after an incident, whether an arrest or a confrontation, to justify their actions. So they lie to obtain convictions, and they lie to shield themselves. The only incentive they have to tell the truth against their own personal interest is when they might get caught lying (videotape; an uncooperative fellow-cop; physical evidence inconsistent with testimony). We'd like to think their moral compass would be enough, but it just isn't. That's an important point, so let me emphasize it: We can't count on a cop's individual sense of morality and decency to cause him or her to tell the truth.

Cops lie when they can get away with it, because it's in their interest to do so. So they lie. A lot. Like whenever they want a conviction or to cover their backsides. They're no different from other people in that regard. Except they carry the full force of the state, making their abuses and lies much more significant in effects.

That might be the most generally insulting thing I have ever read on here. All the officer's I know would be completely offended by you saying they are all, at their core, liars. Do some lie? Absolutely. But for you to say they all lie to get things their way is incredibly insulting. Good cops don't need to lie. They do their jobs with honesty and integrity, and things fall where they do.

 

[Old506]

Remember that picture that was painted by Norman Rockwell where the kid was sitting at the seat in the diner (next to a police officer) with a stick over his shoulder and bag tied onto the stick, like he was running away from home?

It is time for more police officers less cops, SWAT, tactical this body armor that. Less tazers, less black rifles less all black uniforms with ski masks. More officers, more waving as you go by, more stop and talk more taking off your sunglasses when you talk to someone.

 

[Trlsmn]

Remember that picture that was painted by Norman Rockwell where the kid was sitting at the seat in the diner (next to a police officer) with a stick over his shoulder and bag tied onto the stick, like he was running away from home?

It is time for more police officers less cops, SWAT, tactical this body armor that. Less tazers, less black rifles less all black uniforms with ski masks. More officers, more waving as you go by, more stop and talk more taking off your sunglasses when you talk to someone.

You highlighted a trend among police forces that I find very disturbing and that is the militarization of police forces.

 

[Old506]

You highlighted a trend among police forces that I find very disturbing and that is the militarization of police forces.

I said it without saying it.....

 

[coloneltim]

remember that picture that was painted by norman rockwell where the kid was sitting at the seat in the diner (next to a police officer) with a stick over his shoulder and bag tied onto the stick, like he was running away from home?

It is time for more police officers less cops, swat, tactical this body armor that. Less tazers, less black rifles less all black uniforms with ski masks. More officers, more waving as you go by, more stop and talk more taking off your sunglasses when you talk to someone.

amen!

 

[CEF1959]

That might be the most generally insulting thing I have ever read on here. All the officer's I know would be completely offended by you saying they are all, at their core, liars. Do some lie? Absolutely. But for you to say they all lie to get things their way is incredibly insulting. Good cops don't need to lie. They do their jobs with honesty and integrity, and things fall where they do.

I didn't say all cops are liars, let alone your buddies. But cops as a group do lie. They have professional incentives to lie. And the fact that they wield the incredible power of the State makes it all the more serious. Sorry if cops don't want to hear it, but I've seen way too much of it over the years. It's reality. I'm sure many of them are truthful all the time, and most are probably truthful most of the time. But you can't count on their integrity to ensure that.

I'd like to start hearing cops tell the truth by sometimes admitting their wrongdoing, like, "I shouldn't have shot him; that was unjustified" or "I let my emotions get the better of me and beat the crap out him without good cause" or "What I wrote in the report was not true" or "I used the failure to signal a lane change just as a pretext, because two hispanics in a car in this neighborhood are usually up to no good" or "I tricked her into waiving her constitutional rights" or "I didn't actually observe it, but I think that's what probably happened" or "I pulled her over because she looked hot and I was bored" or "He wasn't really resisting arrest, but he mouthed off, so I slugged him." But you almost never hear that kind of thing, even though those things happen all the time. So until then, I won't be assuming their honesty. I'll go with my own observations over the years.

 

[MountainBear]

I didn't say all cops are liars, let alone your buddies. But cops as a group do lie. They have professional incentives to lie. And the fact that they wield the incredible power of the State makes it all the more serious. Sorry if cops don't want to hear it, but I've seen way too much of it over the years. It's reality. I'm sure many of them are truthful all the time, and most are probably truthful most of the time. But you can't count on their integrity to ensure that.

I'd like to start hearing cops tell the truth by sometimes admitting their wrongdoing, like, "I shouldn't have shot him; that was unjustified" or "I let my emotions get the better of me and beat the crap out him without good cause" or "What I wrote in the report was not true" or "I used the failure to signal a lane change just as a pretext, because two hispanics in a car in this neighborhood are usually up to no good" or "I tricked her into waiving her constitutional rights" or "I didn't actually observe it, but I think that's what probably happened" or "I pulled her over because she looked hot and I was bored" or "He wasn't really resisting arrest, but he mouthed off, so I slugged him." But you almost never hear that kind of thing, even though those things happen all the time. So until then, I won't be assuming their honesty. I'll go with my own observations over the years.

What do you do for a living that we should assume that you have a wide enough experience with police for you to have a decent sample size to draw from?

Too often, all we hear about are the bad things that police do. I am arguing that for you to have that cynical view of the profession as a whole, you must have spent too much time reading the media's skewed interpretations of police actions. Officer's screw up, but often, the media portrayal of events is fantasy, and that's all they find interesting enough to report. Go do some ride-alongs, volunteer, become a reserve. Strap on the gear and do the job.

 

[CEF1959]

What do you do for a living that we should assume that you have a wide enough experience with police for you to have a decent sample size to draw from?

Too often, all we hear about are the bad things that police do. I am arguing that for you to have that cynical view of the profession as a whole, you must have spent too much time reading the media's skewed interpretations of police actions. Officer's screw up, but often, the media portrayal of events is fantasy, and that's all they find interesting enough to report. Go do some ride-alongs, volunteer, become a reserve. Strap on the gear and do the job.

You don't have to assume anything, but I can tell you my experience is not from TV or reading. Consider what it suggests about cops when a white middle-aged professional with decades of experience with them and no arrest history holds what you consider a "cynical" view. We're not born that way; it comes from seeing things. I too was taught that cops are god like figures the way you describe them. I have come to learn better.

So what experience do you have that leads you to believe cops are saints? Let me guess what you did for a living before your retired into gunsmithing....

 

[Father of four]

Mountianbear showing your unwavering total support again. Is it so hard to just admit the Police Force has problems like everyone else does? Come on man, you don't need to walk in their shoes to see when they do wrong. You don't need the media to tell you when they do wrong. Even a child can see when things are wrong. Try this. Take a poll.. See how many people believe the Police are or are not doing a good job. Its not Police bashing its the truth...

But go ahead and call me a Cop hater if it makes you feel good.

I would love to see the Police Force as a whole to be considered HONORABLE again like it once was!

 

[Father of four]

Here is the truth staring anyone right in the face... <broken link removed>

Read what goes on in the Police Force..ALOT of them doing some messed up stuff. They need help. Not more overlooking and unwavering support.

 

[MountainBear]

Mountianbear showing your unwavering total support again. Is it so hard to just admit the Police Force has problems like everyone else does? Come on man, you don't need to walk in their shoes to see when they do wrong. You don't need the media to tell you when they do wrong. Even a child can see when things are wrong. Try this. Take a poll.. See how many people believe the Police are or are not doing a good job. Its not Police bashing its the truth...

But go ahead and call me a Cop hater if it make you feel good.

I would love to see the Police Force as a whole to be considered HONORABLE again like it once was!

How many times, in how many different posts do I need to admit that police departments have faults. I have no problem admiting they have problems like everyone else. Where I take issue is saying they have MORE issues than other groups of society. I would argue that the main reason that police forces have a worsening reputation is more related to the spread of availability of media. Everyone now has access. Everyone has a cell phone with a camera. People walk around with flip video cameras.

I am friends with several generations of LEO's. Based on my personal experiences, as well as their's, I would argue that law enforcement as a whole has cleaned itself up (sometimes willingly, sometimes not). I have heard stories from cops from the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's that leaves me shaking my head. Cop's not just wrong, but horribly criminal. The officer's today will not stand for similar things. It still happens on occasion. It's just that we are no longer unaware of what happens across the country. We now know instantly if something happens anywhere in the country. We no longer are limited to our local news only. Now we know what happens in Vegas, or Seattle, or New York, or L.A. We know when LEO's screw up (like several did with the stomping episode in Seattle).

YES, COPS SCREW UP!!!

 

[Trlsmn]

This has gotten out of hand. When real evidence comes out in this matter anyone can feel free to open a new thread.