Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Judge rules in favor of CHL carrier/small business owner/lawyer against angry cop

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Sincere, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Sincere

    Sincere Between Cascadia and Jefferson Active Member

    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    87
    This is the sweetest part of the story, Hartfield is a graduate of Lewis and Clark law school:

    This was in Wednesday's Oregonian. I'm really surprised no one mentioned this story (unless I missed it) as it involves a CHL holder and small business owner.

    Paraphrased story: Local business owner was defending his store and himself from an out of control customer who had pulled a knife on him. In the ensuing struggle, the businessman's concealed .45 came out of his holster. Owner was able to disarm the attacker and pick up his pistol and re-holster it. When the cops showed up, Officer Besner (a paragon of law enforcement, google him) cuffed the victim while removing his firearm and searching for his CHL. There were witnesses in front of the store trying to tell the officer that the owner was the victim. Owner asks to be uncuffed so they can go in the store and talk, officer refuses, so owner declines to speak until his lawyer arrives. Officer gets butthurt and shoves owner in cop car, takes him downtown. Officer later claims he could not find CHL, but other cops at precint find it exactly where owner said it was in the wallet.

    2 years later owner gets to put angry, aggressive cop on the stand and dress him down. Judge continues the dressing down. Judge awards paltry sum to owner, but owner gets vindication.

    Officer gets to keep his job, costs city another $5,000 (on top of the over $500,000 he's already cost the city in other lawsuits).

    Way to go Hartfield!
     
  2. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    224
  3. fd15k

    fd15k Tigard,OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,440
    Likes Received:
    491
  4. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    The money should come out of the officers pocketbook alone
     
  5. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,830
    Likes Received:
    871
    I think the lawyers cost's are supposed to be included in the award.

    Unfortunately, until the City Of Portland gets a jaw dropping award your will still have Besner saying "I did the right thing" He still does not see that he did anything wrong...slap him and the city with a 7 figure + award, and tell them that the award is that large specifically because they "don't get it"... and are in need having their eye's opened...then maybe they will understand...No Sgt Besner, you did NOT do the right thing. The Judge just told you that.
     
  6. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,311
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Love this comment! Nice job Good LEO!!! We need more like you Mr.McGroodle!

    "McGroodle

    Officer Besner was justified in initially handcuffing the plaintiff in order to seperate the two combatants and secure the weapons. Once he received information that Hartfied was the victim of an assault, he should have been uncuffed and treated as a victim. Officer's Besner"s continued detention was clearly a violation of Hartfield's rights. The judge got it right.

    As a 23 years PPB veteran, it is disheartening to watch Besner continue to engage in such lousy police work and have the PPB continue to not only defend him but even promote him.

    This type of police work is not defensible. Time for the PPB to deal with Besner. Discipline, termination, demotion, a desk in a closet to do paperwork and be hidden from the public. Take your pick."


    :thumbup:
     
    gehrheart, Redcap, Blitzkrieg and 5 others like this.
  7. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    2,731
    Absolutely. There should be a zero or two added to the sum first, though.
     
  8. keystir

    keystir Hillsboro, OR Active Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    123
    Hartfield did a good job arguing his case, but unfortunately he let himself down when arguing for damages by asking the jury to award "what they thought was fair." Depending on who's on the jury you could get a verdict of $5.00 or $5,000,000. He should have done a better job of framing his damages and laid out what he thought was "fair" to give the jury something to work with during their deliberations. As it was all they had to work with was the ridiculous $1 offer from the city as a starting point.
     
  9. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

    Messages:
    1,113
    Likes Received:
    589
    This is a great decision. While I'm disappointed with the $5,000 award, at least that means we as tax payers only have to play an additional $5,000 for this LEO's in ability to perform his duty correctly.

    If you think about it, Hartfield had to pay out of his own pocket to do this, but it is the tax payer's who had to pay all of the legal costs and penalty for this LEO's failure. That is the really sad part.
     
  10. lamrith

    lamrith tacoma Active Member

    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    114
    Yeah $5k does not cover much and his Attorney fees probably ate most of that. A Bigger sum, maybe with the majority to a pro-gun / Pro CHL charity would have been a great idea..
     
  11. Botte Hork

    Botte Hork Camas WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    267
    If it were you and me, yes, we'd be filing for bankruptcy as our liability insurance won't cover it and of course $5k is just the start. If you're dealing with government and protected groups (like LE), it's another story.

    I'm not sure whether that's OK or not. On the one hand it is not, as it gives, in a way, powerhungry weak excuses for an LEO almost a blank checkbook to cover damages. On the other hand, it does not restrain LE and other agencies from actually doing their job out of fear for civil lawsuit repercussions. I know that many think government is solely there to annoy them, take their posessions and limit their freedoms, but they also do good stuff. It's not black, nor white, there are many shades of grey (yes ladies, more than 50 actually ;)).
     
  12. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

    Messages:
    1,113
    Likes Received:
    589
    Botte Hork, you make an excellent point. While some people have a fundamental belief that Government should be virtually non-existent and everything should be privatized, I'm not one of them. I think there are functions that Government should provide.

    I have the utmost respect for the ideal of Law Enforcement, but in execution I have almost nothing but disgust. And most of this comes down to accountability. While many LEO do an excellent job, so many also do a horrible job. And those who do a good job tend to protect the bad ones. Which I find reprehensible. Yes it is a tough job, or career if you would like. But, the big but, is you are choosing to actually take on the position. No one is forcing you. A police officer should go above and beyond the average citizen. Yes they put their life on the line, they don't get to shoot first. They don't get to have the last word. They don't get to have emotion and take revenge via their authority.

    The old expression of 'it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch' is very true. One officer who gets pissed about someone showing him up and then making a normal situation a bad situation needs to be reprimanded immediately. And not by his commanding officer, but by his other co-officers. Peer pressure works much more effectively.

    I want to read an article title, 'Officer does something stupid, fellow officers ostracize him/her until they correct actions.'
     
  13. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    1,589
    LOL, that's a good one. Because whatever good some cops did somehow justify the officials in the police union protecting this maniac, and his bosses promoting him and putting him back on the street.

    If their jobs didn't involve f***ing with people and stealing their money the police wouldn't have anything to fear from civil lawsuits.
     
    Redcap and (deleted member) like this.
  14. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,830
    Likes Received:
    871
    I have never been in the situation, but my idea of a proper response to "how much" would go something like this:

    Because the (insert yours here)PD has had a history of civil rights abuses, and they do not seem to be concerned about learning the law, and correcting the problem themselves, it is my idea to take the award from this suit and set up a foundation that others, that have similar experiences as I just have had, can draw on so they do not go bankrupt, or will be able to file because they would go bankrupt if they did file such a civil rights suit. A secondary consideration should be that the sum is sufficient that it might actually open this PD's eyes, and just because of the learning experience, we would have less of this problem happen to the citizens of this city...I would think $5M or so would be a good starting point.
     
  15. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,830
    Likes Received:
    871
    Unfortunately, that is not what happens...this is what happens and DID happen AFTER a Spokane PD Sgt was CONVICTED of excessive use of force in a Federal Court. And this now CONVICTED FELON isn't even handcuffed when he leaves the court or is he fired from the SPD. Spokane Cops Salute Karl Thompson - Huckleberries Online - Spokesman.com - Nov. 4, 2011

    Not only that but he is NOT in jail yet, and has not been in jail. It took 5 years to get him to trial (Spokane DA would not charge him) and a year AFTER he's been convicted he is not in jail YET...(look at the date on the news release)...and you wonder why the "brotherhood" thinks they are above the law????
     
  16. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,311
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    I wonder how the Police union would feel if a few dozen people stood up in attention to a cop killer being let go?

    "Some four dozen Spokane Police officers and other supporters stood when someone yelled “Present Arms” and saluted Thompson as he was led away by U.S. Marshals without being handcuffed. As the crowd saluted in unison, attorney Jeffry Finer turned and apologized to the family of Otto Zehm, who died after a violent confrontation with Thompson and other officers in a North Spokane convenience store in 2006"

    That is totally messed up!
     
  17. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,311
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/nov/04/cit_thompson_detention/

    "U.S. Marshals took convicted Spokane Police Officer Karl F. Thompson Jr. into custody today after a federal judge ruled that his detention is appropriate pending sentencing for using excessive force on Otto Zehm and lying to cover it up.

    Some four dozen Spokane Police officers and other supporters stood when someone yelled “Present Arms” and saluted Thompson as he was led away by U.S. Marshals without being handcuffed.

    As the crowd saluted in unison, attorney Jeffry Finer turned and apologized to the family of Otto Zehm, who died after a violent confrontation with Thompson and other officers in a North Spokane convenience store in 2006. Finer is representing Zehm’s family in a companion civil suit.

    “The salute was meant to be respectful,” Finer said. “But it seemed to be given with no thought of the victim’s family seated inches away.”

    Hours later, Mayor Mary Verner and Police Chief Anne Kirkpatrick apologized for the officers’ actions. “We have acknowledged the pain that many of our officers feel as a result of the Thompson verdict, but it has been widely reported to us that the courtroom behavior of some officers, though protected as free speech, does not reflect the values we stand for,” the city’s statement read.

    “It clearly was insensitive to the friends and family of Otto Zehm, and for that, we apologize. We had previously directed that officers could not be in the courtroom while on duty. Still, on duty or not, we expect our officers—because of their position in the community—to live up to a high professional standard."
     
  18. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    1,589
    hitler_paper.jpg
     
    Redcap and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,311
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    "Finer said the show of support indicates that Spokane has a long way to go before law enforcement understands the perspective of the victim’s family."

    That right there is what I think is the real problem within Our government.
     
  20. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,830
    Likes Received:
    871
    A couple other articles about Mr. Thompson. BTW: The Spoksman Review is a very liberal newspaper, but so far they have don't ok with this one...

    Thompson divorce under feds

    Doug Clark: Thompson

    There was another one, but fr some reason I cannot find it...Karl Thompson is supposed to sentenced sometime this month...anyway...SPD union was going to put on a "going away" BBQ in Thompson's honor...until the new SPD police chief reminded them...that consorting with a CONVICTED FELON was against policy and could result in disciplinary action.

    And you don't think these guys think they are above the law...well, I guess you could say that they think more along the lines that they ARE the law...just forget the written law.