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Is it law you must have tax stamp on you?

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by Nero, Mar 30, 2015.

  1. Nero

    Nero Portland Member

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    I have always taken the approved form 4, made a copy and put that in the range bag. I was told that the law says I must pay the tax and that proves the nfa item is legally mine.

    I have never seen wording that compels me to have a copy of that tax stamp on me at all times that the nfa item is with me at the range.

    I can always prove legal ownership but is it the LAW that I carry that proof on me at all times?
     
  2. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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  3. Nero

    Nero Portland Member

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    Thank you and I typically always have proof on me but Is it the law? I do not believe I must show any proof to local law enforcement. Is it in my best interest to do so if asked, probably. ATF has the proof, I have the proof and I can happily provide it to ATF within a reasonable amount of time.....post request. I think the answer is NO but YES is recommended.
     
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  4. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    To my knowledge it is not the law for regular LE, but it is to the ATF agents. I just took pictures of my and save it on my phone :)
     
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  5. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    That's actually a great idea, Benny!
     
  6. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    I shrink four down to one page, front and back and carry those along with a front and back copy of the trust agreement and schedule A just in case (since the trust really owns it, a dick could imply I'm not the trustee). Anyway, you are compelled to show proof of that NFA stamp to anyone that asks, not just law enforcement if I'm not mistaken. If you refuse, they can call the police to check it anyway. You may encounter this at a pay range with over-zealous officers.

    Remember, it's not reporting an illegal weapon, it's reporting a tax violation. And as far as I know, I can call the IRS and tell them you or anyone has been cheating on their taxes if I have reason to believe so and have the zeal to make the call.

    I'm sure a call to ATF would engenger a similar response.

    I've never been bothered, but I walk like I own it so that generally works out well for me. But if anyone asks, I'll show them. Oh, I have been asked once, by a civilian, but either the guy was genuine or hiding his intentions as he said he'd never seen one before and wanted to see what they looked like (which seems like a way of checking the papers without causing any problems). I showed him and we moved on.

    Oh, I also keep full page copies in the vehicle, my toolbox and the vault. My wife has copies on her an in her vehicles and the originals stay in the vault.
     
    Fin and Feather Guns likes this.
  7. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    I wouldn't show a civilian nothing. Let them call the police as they don't have any right to see my papers which have my address on them.
     
  8. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    Straight from ATF:

    Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

    Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
     
    parallax likes this.
  9. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Okay, I looked it up on a law site and I was wrong about civilians asking but not wrong about them calling the police if they so desire, and it can be common with range officers who in some cases can just have you removed from the property and be done with the whole deal. Many of them view our laws seriously and some wish to protect them and don't want members or clients who are brandishing illegal NFA weapons.

    And yes, I'm pretty sure you have to show it to state/local police because they follow federal law regarding it. In other words, the only way a local cop can know if the SBR you have is legal or not is to look at the federal tax stamp.

    I guess if you want to be hard about it, he can call an ATF agent to come out there, or just seize it and maybe even you too until it can all be verified. Remember, suppressors and SBR's and DD's are still illegal in WA without the federal paperwork and the tax stamp.

    I actually figured I'd have been checked more than I have, only one "civilian" (could have been an ATF guy though) asked to see mine saying he'd never seen one.

    But I'm ready if and when anyone does, my form 1 items are engraved and for both form1 and 4 items, I have 4 front and back color HD copies with a copy of my schedule A and a few other important trust documents on a separate single page. It's just too easy to show if anyone is concerned.

    Finally, I doubt most civilians are going to ask you for it anyway, as they don't feel they have the right in the first place --they'd likely just call the cops outright and let them make the request. That's likely what I'd do if you or the item looked fishy. Like a meth head with some plumbing tubing and hose clamps on the end of his beater 10/22... Yeah, I'd let someone that gets paid for deal with that.
     
  10. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    Incorrect on the LE front. You CAN show it to them if you want, but you are under no obligation to provide it.
    Refer to Deberry v. US; "it would be essential that the officers have a reasonable belief and not a mere hunch that if he was carrying a gun he was violating the law."

    So, unless the cop can prove he has a "reasonable suspicion" that you are illegally in possesion of the firearm, whether NFA item or not, he has no grounds to stop you when possessed in a place and manner that is otherwise legal and with no other illegal behavior. If he wants to call the ATF and demand an agent come out more power to him.

    Furthermore, if it's a "Range official" and they are actually representing the range and the questioning is within the scope of range requirements then that rolls in to private property rights. Basically, you can do what they say or they can kick you out. However, if it's just some wannabe FUDD you can tell him to pack sand as he has no authority to question or detain you.
     
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  11. OREGON FALER

    OREGON FALER Springfield, OR. Active Member

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    You don't have to carry paperwork on you in Oregon, However, It is an affirmative defense to prosecution if you can prove you own it legally and a tax stamp is proof. In Oregon suppressors are illegal unless they are legal, and the way you prove legality is with your tax stamp. An officer could ask to see proof of legality if he wanted too just because it's a controlled item and you could show him your stamp or not show him your stamp and he could arrest you either way. Most police officer's have no idea what they are looking at when you show them a copy of your stamp. There is no requirement to show private tax documents to anyone except an agent of the BATFE.

    So you get asked by an officer for your paperwork and you show it to him, 99.9% chance you are gonna walk away with your item with no further questions asked. Is there a slight chance he might arrest you, I guess but a judge would probably slap his hand, not sure, not aware of it happening.

    Let's say you stand on your principle and tell him no he may not see your paperwork, I think you've got a better than 50% chance of going to jail and then the judge will get to see the paperwork and you be set free most likely but you've been to jail and they have your item now. You'll get it back but will it be in the same condition as when they took it?

    Now all of that having been said, I keep color copies of my tax stamp with the items themselves and a thin binder in my briefcase with each of my stamps.
    I'm fully prepared to show the local police my paperwork if the need arise but I don't spend time breaking the law and if an officer did approach me about it , he'd know I had it legally just by talking with me and there would no need to inspect the stamp, but I have it anyway in case he thinks I'm full of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
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  12. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    The statement "In Oregon suppressors are illegal unless they are legal" is confusing as all items classified as a NFA items (Suppressors, short barreled rifles/shot guns, machine guns and AOW) are illegal unless you have the required paper work with cancelled tax stamp affixed.
     
  13. Martini_Up

    Martini_Up NW USA Well-Known Member

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    No, you don't. Per the ATF website (cited above), you only need to show your forms to ATF agents.

    Local LEO - there's no law against it in Oregon so it's perfectly legal. It's like a local LEO checking your passport before allowing you to cross into PDX from Beaverton... there's no state written law forbidding you do cross that border. Even if you had a non-registered MG (or other NFA item), it's a federal crime, not state. NFA is federal. Kind of like AZ LEO can't ask about citizenship of person nor enforce illegal aliens laws - that's federal law. Have I beat it to death yet??
    :s0013:
     
  14. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    ATF has a duty officer on call 24/7 that barney fife can get on the phone if he needs to check on the legal status of your NFA item......
     
  15. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

    (2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

    (3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person’s immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

    (4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1]



    Let's break this down....

    (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

    (2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.


    So we can take from this that it's illegal to have these things. Because it clearly states so. This is an Oregon statute, making it illegal in Oregon, subject to Oregon courts and Oregon cops. B Felony, time to be served in Oregon prison.

    But wait!

    (3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person’s immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

    There's an exception.

    There's also a defense... an "affirmative defense," which is a legal term meaning, again.... burden of proof is on YOU. In other words, the assumption of the court will be that you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence. There aren't very many statutes that are written like this... they're special. And they're uniquely important for gun owners to understand.

    (4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law.

    Burden of proof is on you. If you can't provide evidence to the officer that satisfied his reasonable suspicion that you're committing an Oregon crime with your short barreled rifle or sound suppressor, he will arrest you for the crime of Unlawful Possession of Machineguns, Certain Short-barreled Firearms, and Firearms Silencers.

    Seems pretty clear to me - carry some kind of proof that you're lawfully in possession, and be prepared to provide it if you're questioned by someone who can arrest you.
     
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  16. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    Ok, there are some instances I let civilians see my stamps because they never saw what stamps look like. If they are friendly than there is no reason why I be a jerk including to the LE. I have encounter lots of people asked me about my suppressors, I explained the process how to own one and offer them to shoot couple mags. I enjoy other shooting mine toys as much I shoot their.
     
  17. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    What's even more fun, is suppressed full auto firearms. That really impresses folks that haven't handled one.
     
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  18. Who The F R U

    Who The F R U Rainier Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Ben Beckerich,

    What it comes down too is this,

    If you live in a state where NFA weapons are legal there is a presumption of legality if someone has one.
    The police have no probable cause to believe that a NFA item is illegal,just because you have it.


    If they ask to see your forms?,you can tell them to go piss up a tree...... If you want to.
    The 4th Amendment covers it.
     
  19. Benny503

    Benny503 Grants Pass Well-Known Member

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    I will go broke, just semi-auto and I let friends dump the mags as fast as they can :) .25 cents per round 30 rounds per mag that is $7.50. Lucky me I have good and stable income :)
     
  20. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    "there is a presumption of legality" .... by who?