Is anyone familiar with the Taurus Raging Hunter, Smith and Wesson X frame, and Ruger Super Redhawk, curious about balance and handiness

[The Heretic]

That's one of the things I love about NWFA. Its great that I can come here and ask a question, and however weird or specialized the question, so many people here will know all about it and are happy to share.

The 45 Redhawk is akso a good option. There's much to be said for a less powerful caliber than .454 Casull for SD against bears including grizzlies. Or even the full power 45+P, which is basically equivalent in power to a .44mag but with a fatter and maybe heavier bullet. In fact, one line of argument goes that the optimal .44mag load for defense against grizzlies isn't even a full 1100 - 1200 full power standard hunting load but instead a toned down .44mag bullet at about 800 - 1000 ft. lbs. All this assumes a proper bear load, a heavy hard cast bullet with a wide flat nose with sharp edges. The argument goes, all handgun loads are wimpy compared with a high power rifle load. Even a heart shot with a high power rifle that completely shreds the bears heart is not instantly incapacitating. It takes the bear a few seconds to die, and if he is close he can be on you and kill you with those few seconds. You need to instantly incapacitate the bear. And only a brain or spine shot will do that. The spine is a small iffy target. So basically you need to hit the bear in the head over the brain. And if the bear is charging, what you need is a gun/caliber that you can shoot with either hand, since the bear may be chewing on the other arm. And the bear loads are all heavy hard cast bullets with wide flat noses and sharp edges because that is what will penetrate the thick sloped plate of the skull as a grizzly charges you without deflecting off. If there is time its also nice to have fast follow-up shots. All the .44mag commercial bear loads I've checked in 44mag are about 800-1000 ft. lbs. And I also know that I can easily control a standard 6" .44mag with either hand with loads up to 1000 ft lbs. But at 1100 I need two hands. Using that approach the best thing to carry for bear defense if you had a Toklat would not be .454. It would be a somewhat watered down .45 +P.

The other approach to bear SD is: Many bear attacks are so fast and such a surprise that one shot is all you're gonna get. So it better be the most powerful possible.

More than one guide/hunter/fisherman has found that bear skulls are thick & hard, and there are reports of witnesses seeing .44 mag projectiles "bounce" off their skulls when hit dead on.

I believe in what some guides have advocated due to the difficulty of killing a large charging brown bear:

With the right ammo, fire into the front shoulder(s) to break those bones, then the rear hip(s) to break those bones/joints. The goal is to slow down or even stop the charge by making it hard for the bear to move.

Then once that is done, you can concentrate on hitting the vitals, depending on your location relative to the bear.

 

[OldBroad44]

More than one guide/hunter/fisherman has found that bear skulls are thick & hard, and there are reports of witnesses seeing .44 mag projectiles "bounce" off their skulls when hit dead on....

Right. But only if you are carrying the wrong ammo. For example, if the gun is loaded with jacketed soft points, which many people mistakenly think is a suitable bear load. Its not. Its designed for more penetration and less expansion than a jhp, but the right amount of expansion for a bear load is none. Its not a bear load in any handgun caliber. Not in Casual either. And the "bouncing off" is not bouncing off. Its deflecting. If the person is standing and the bear is charging, the grizzly skull is up to 3" thick and is sloped at about 30 degrees. So if it is hit between the eyes with a round nose bullet, the bullet tends to penetrate the skin and flesh only, then deflect upward off the sloped skull bone and exit the skin, leaving just a superficial gash and an even angrier grizzly. A proper bear load in .44mag has no trouble getting through the skull on a charging grizzly. It goes all the way through the bear in all possible orientations except if it goes directly through the head and entire body from the front, it ends up about at the lower gut instead of exiting.

And a bear load should be super hard cast so it goes directly through bear shoulders or skulls without smashing or changing shape at all. And the tip should have a very broad flat nose with sharp edges so it does as much damage as possible while not expanding at all. JSPs have a small flat tip and rounded edges. Its basically pretty close to being a round nosed bullet, the type of bullet most prone to deflect.

The shoulder shot is a good first shot if the bear is some distance away. If it surprises you from almost on you a shoulder shot means the next thing is the angry bear is right on you tearing you apart with its teeth. Grizzled can stand and walk on their back legs. Under the close range scenario your first shot must incapacitate the bear. Otherwise you die. Most black bears run when seriously injured. Most grizzlies dont. They get madder than ever and try to kill you while they are dying.

 

[Tlock]

Right. But only if you are carrying the wrong ammo. For example, if the gun is loaded with jacketed soft points, which many people mistakenly think is a suitable bear load. Its not. Its designed for more penetration and less expansion than a jhp, but the right amount of expansion for a bear load is none. Its not a bear load in any handgun caliber. Not in Casual either. And the "bouncing off" is not bouncing off. Its deflecting. If the person is standing and the bear is charging, the grizzly skull is up to 3" thick and is sloped at about 30 degrees. So if it is hit between the eyes with a round nose bullet, the bullet tends to penetrate the skin and flesh only, then deflect upward off the sloped skull bone and exit the skin, leaving just a superficial gash and an even angrier grizzly. A proper bear load in .44mag has no trouble getting through the skull on a charging grizzly. It goes all the way through the bear in all possible orientations except if it goes directly through the head and entire body from the front, it ends up about at the lower gut instead of exiting.

And a bear load should be super hard cast so it goes directly through bear shoulders or skulls without smashing or changing shape at all. And the tip should have a very broad flat nose with sharp edges so it does as much damage as possible while not expanding at all. JSPs have a small flat tip and rounded edges. Its basically pretty close to being a round nosed bullet, the type of bullet most prone to deflect.

The shoulder shot is a good first shot if the bear is some distance away. If it surprises you from almost on you a shoulder shot means the next thing is the angry bear is right on you tearing you apart with its teeth. Grizzled can stand and walk on their back legs. Under the close range scenario your first shot must incapacitate the bear. Otherwise you die. Most black bears run when seriously injured. Most grizzlies dont. They get madder than ever and try to kill you while they are dying.

Though rare I've met just a handful of black bears that have that "I wanna kill you mentality", most run even when injured like you stated. Shot placement is everything!

 

[OldBroad44]

Though rare I've met just a handful of black bears that have that "I wanna kill you mentality", most run even when injured like you stated. Shot placement is everything!

Apparently some grizzlies will run when injured too. I read a recent case of a grizzly attack in which the grizzly was shot nonlethally and wimped out and ran. What I've read is that most bears follow the species stereotype, but not all. That it depends on the the personality of the particular bear. But who knows? It might be the situation. Or whether its a mother with cubs. Or whether the bear was already having a bad day. Or some combination.

 

[Tlock]

Apparently some grizzlies will run when injured too. I read a recent case of a grizzly attack in which the grizzly was shot nonlethally and wimped out and ran. What I've read is that most bears follow the species stereotype, but not all. That it depends on the the personality of the particular bear. But who knows? It might be the situation. Or whether its a mother with cubs. Or whether the bear was already having a bad day. Or some combination.

Working very closely with black bears for 20 years I think it comes down to the personality of the individual bear. I've never worked with grizzly bears just been around them fishing in Alaska. But yes the majority follow the stereotype

 

[OldBroad44]

Working very closely with black bears for 20 years I think it comes down to the personality of the individual bear. I've never worked with grizzly bears just been around them fishing in Alaska. But yes the majority follow the stereotype

Hey, @Tlock -- You carry a 629 when on the job and dealing with bears, right? What ammo do you carry in the gun?

 

[Tlock]

Yes.....underwood Hardcastle flat nose. I don't remember exactly what they are. Been using the 10mm more lately just cause it's a glock and I don't care if it gets beat up or dirty. But same idea on the 10mm ammo

 

[OldBroad44]

@Sky61 -- Since you're planning to go to Alaska, let me pass on some family lore that may matter lots more in keeping you from getting killed by a bear than any details about what gun to carry.

My dad grew up on a farm during the depression. He was the hunter in the family. He was responsible for providing the family of his parents, two farm hands, and six kids all the meat they needed for the equivalent of one day a week every week. Another brother was the fisherman, and covered the equivalent of one day per week of the family's food. The rest of the siblings and farm hands worked on the farm and provided the rest of the meat and all the fruits and vegetables. So my dad grew up hunting almost every day. He went to college on a ROTC scholarship, and when WWII came he was called up, joined the "Army Air Force", and was stationed in Anchorage right after the war. Meat from the lower 48 was pretty near nonexistent, so feeding the family as much meat as we liked once again depended on my dad's hunting and fishing skills. The family lived pretty far from Anchorage in a log cabin with no electricity and only wood heat. It had a large hut on stilts in the back yard for frozen meat storage. The stilts were necessary to keep bears from getting at the winter's supply of game and fish. I was only three at the time, so know that era only from family stories and photos. My sister was seven.

My parents hunted and fished at every opportunity each fall and winter until the meat storage hut was full. Their fishing brought them into regular close proximity to grizzlies and brown bears. Including passing them on paths when going to or returning from rivers. They never had any problems with the bears. Of course my dad and mom were always armed when fishing. But following my dad's rules, they avoided getting into situations where using a gun against a bear was necessary.

Dad's rules: Be polite. If a bear is coming down the path, get off the path and let him pass, just like a smaller bear does with a bigger bear. Never turn your back on him or run. Don't stare at him! That is a dominance challenge and can provoke an attack. Instead, look at him sideways making it obvious you are watching him, but not issuing a dominance challenge. If you get to the river and one or more bears are in the spot you wanted to fish, dont move in on them and try to force them to move. Bears have only limited spots they can fish effectively, places where the terrain forces the fish to swim in shallow water or even jump out of the water. The bears may fight over these spots, with the biggest most fierce bears driving the smaller ones away. Instead, move down or up the river. If a bear comes along and wants your spot, let him have it and politely withdraw. With your fishing gear you can fish plenty of places the bear can't , and he's got just a very limited time to put on enough fat to survive the winter. Keep your caught fish out of sight so you don't tempt a bear to try to take them away from you. Some bears actually specialize in taking fish away from other bears instead of catching their own.

Maximally macho rules? No. My dad was 6' 6", and an expert and trainer in small arms and hand to hand combat. He had no need to prove his macho by strutting around and provoking the wildlife into unnecessary conflicts. He just wanted to hunt and fish quietly, minding his own business and enjoying the bounty Alaska provided ...just like most of the bears.

 

[OldBroad44]

@Sky61 -- A couple of other things about Alaska--

Most of the gun oils and lubricants turn to sludge in the cold of an Alaska winter in colder places. My dad lubricated the slide of the Colt Woodsman semiautomatic pistol with graphite, not an oil at all. Find out what the locals are using as gun lubricants these days wherever you go and switch to that.

Alaska has snowshoe hares, which can get up to 20 lbs, are easy to hunt with either rifles or handguns, and are very good eating. My parents used to hunt them with handguns, shooting them in the head. They are brown in summer and white in winter. They are easy to hunt because they tend to freeze when approached, depending on their camouflage. So you can get very close to them, especially if you take an angle toward them rather than approaching directly and appear to be looking at other things. So you might want to take a good .22 handgun or rifle or both with you in addition to your Casull and big game hunting rifle(s).

 

[The Heretic]

If you get to the river and one or more bears are in the spot you wanted to fish, dont move in on them and try to force them to move. Bears have only limited spots they can fish effectively, places where the terrain forces the fish to swim in shallow water or even jump out of the water. The bears may fight over these spots, with the biggest most fierce bears driving the smaller ones away. Instead, move down or up the river. If a bear comes along and wants your spot, let him have it and politely withdraw. With your fishing gear you can fish plenty of places the bear can't , and he's got just a very limited time to put on enough fat to survive the winter. Keep your caught fish out of sight so you don't tempt a bear to try to take them away from you. Some bears actually specialize in taking fish away from other bears instead of catching their own.

 

[ScatPackLife]

I am looking for a bear/moose defensive handgun with a barrel length between 4 and 7 and half inches that can shoot 454 Casull. I like how the balance and feel of smith and Wesson revolvers. But I am not familiar with the X frame they look very large and cumbersome. I also have no desire to shoot 460 magnum out of a handgun so I would only be running 45 colt and 454 out of it. The Taurus is the least expensive and most available and I have no experience with it. Any feedback would be appreciated. I am also located around Scio that commutes to Eugene so any suggestions where I can go and look at some of these revolvers would be appreciated

I have a 7.6" Super Red Hawk in 480 and think it balances fantastic. I love the gun. My previous experience with magnum revolvers was S&W M69 and 29 both with 4" barrels(still have the M69). I think revolvers with longer barrels actually balance better, yield higher velocities, tend to be more accurate because of a longer sight radius, and they often recoil less. The only advantage of the 4" or shorter barrel is they're slightly faster to draw and they are usually lighter and easier to carry. Practicing would mitigate the draw issue. And get a proper holster.

If you haven't shot a magnum revolver before just know they will wake you up. In my experience they are a handful, not unbearable to shoot, just loud. Some people can't handle the recoil and I understand why, it's not for everyone, but I love big loud guns. The 480 Ruger is a really fun round. I imagine the 454 is also. Hopefully you're not susceptible to heavy recoil.

 

[Boboclown]

I have a 7.6" Super Red Hawk in 480 and think it balances fantastic. I love the gun. My previous experience with magnum revolvers was S&W M69 and 29 both with 4" barrels(still have the M69). I think revolvers with longer barrels actually balance better, yield higher velocities, tend to be more accurate because of a longer sight radius, and they often recoil less. The only advantage of the 4" or shorter barrel is they're slightly faster to draw and they are usually lighter and easier to carry. Practicing would mitigate the draw issue. And get a proper holster.

If you haven't shot a magnum revolver before just know they will wake you up. In my experience they are a handful, not unbearable to shoot, just loud. Some people can't handle the recoil and I understand why, it's not for everyone, but I love big loud guns. The 480 Ruger is a really fun round. I imagine the 454 is also. Hopefully you're not susceptible to heavy recoil.

.480 is a bit easier to handle than .454, a friend of mine has the alaskan in .480. I sometimes switch between the compact grip and grooveless hogue grip, .454 is an experience.

I seldom use the compact grip and .454, simply because you just can't get a good grip with hotter loads. Managed to cut skin off this that grip.

 

[The Heretic]

If you haven't shot a magnum revolver before just know they will wake you up. In my experience they are a handful, not unbearable to shoot, just loud. Some people can't handle the recoil and I understand why, it's not for everyone, but I love big loud guns. The 480 Ruger is a really fun round. I imagine the 454 is also. Hopefully you're not susceptible to heavy recoil.

Weight in any firearm, but especially a handgun (IMO) is an important factor in recoil. Most handguns are a decent weight and recoil isn't painful, but when a handgun is made with ultra-light material (aluminum/scandium/titanium) and is a "heavy" magnum, the recoil can be such that nobody really wants to shoot the handgun more than a couple times - e.g., the S&W 329PD in .44 magnum.

 

[ScatPackLife]

but when a handgun is made with ultra-light material (aluminum/scandium/titanium) and is a "heavy" magnum, the recoil can be such that nobody really wants to shoot the handgun more than a couple times - e.g., the S&W 329PD in .44 magnum.

or like shooting 305gr 44magnum Double Tap bear loads in a 37oz M69 with the stock grips?! That's only fun for a cylinder or 2. The XFrame grips help but still.. Yaoza! Talk about muzzle flip. But a standard 44 mag load is manageable, like a 250gr @ ~1250fps.

 

[Certaindeaf]

To OP, didn't really read the whole thread..
How much pistol shooting have you done? If not much I wouldn't worry about minutiae of relative balance of moose pistols much because it's all moot/ academic.

 

[ScatPackLife]

.480 is a bit easier to handle than .454, a friend of mine has the alaskan in .480. I sometimes switch between the compact grip and grooveless hogue grip, .454 is an experience.

I seldom use the compact grip and .454, simply because you just can't get a good grip with hotter loads. Managed to cut skin off this that grip.

480 recoil is for sure lighter than 454. I would compare the 7.5" SRH 480 recoil to a 4" 629 shooting American Eagle 44mag. I was shooting them side by side, the Ruger is heavier and louder but the difference in recoil was minimal.

The huge advantage 480 has over 454 is that it can also take down Brown bear and moose, but has much less recoil. It's a very underrated caliber that some people don't understand. The JHPs that Hornady came out were not where this caliber shines. A 410gr HC going around 1100fps, !!!WOMP!!! The only downside is it's hard to find sometimes and there are no cheap commercial plinking loads.

I would like to cut my barrel to 6" for better portability and drill the cylinder to accept .475 Linebaugh for funnsies.

 

[The Heretic]

or like shooting 305gr 44magnum Double Tap bear loads in a 37oz M69 with the stock grips?! That's only fun for a cylinder or 2. The XFrame grips help but still.. Yaoza! Talk about muzzle flip. But a standard 44 mag load is manageable, like a 250gr @ ~1250fps.

Like that, only worse, because the 329PD weighs a smidge over 25 ounces. It isn't even fun for the first round, much less the first cylinder.

 

[CountryGent]

Interesting the .480 Ruger is being kicked around. From what I've read, the cartridge has a lot going for it. Tempted to take the plunge, but since I've already have a wheelgun that can shoot .500 JRH, which is close in performance, opted not too. Still, interesting option.

 

[Boboclown]

480 recoil is for sure lighter than 454. I would compare the 7.5" SRH 480 recoil to a 4" 629 shooting American Eagle 44mag. I was shooting them side by side, the Ruger is heavier and louder but the difference in recoil was minimal.

The huge advantage 480 has over 454 is that it can also take down Brown bear and moose, but has much less recoil. It's a very underrated caliber that some people don't understand. The JHPs that Hornady came out were not where this caliber shines. A 410gr HC going around 1100fps, !!!WOMP!!! The only downside is it's hard to find sometimes and there are no cheap commercial plinking loads.

I would like to cut my barrel to 6" for better portability and drill the cylinder to accept .475 Linebaugh for funnsies.

My only gripe with it is ammo availability, sometimes I just wanna be lazy.

But I usually load .45 so between .45 LC and .454 I'm covered.

 

[oremike]

480 recoil is for sure lighter than 454. I would compare the 7.5" SRH 480 recoil to a 4" 629 shooting American Eagle 44mag. I was shooting them side by side, the Ruger is heavier and louder but the difference in recoil was minimal.

The huge advantage 480 has over 454 is that it can also take down Brown bear and moose, but has much less recoil. It's a very underrated caliber that some people don't understand. The JHPs that Hornady came out were not where this caliber shines. A 410gr HC going around 1100fps, !!!WOMP!!! The only downside is it's hard to find sometimes and there are no cheap commercial plinking loads.

I would like to cut my barrel to 6" for better portability and drill the cylinder to accept .475 Linebaugh for funnsies.

I liked the 480 as a caliber, in fact I'll bet yours used to be mine and I'm the one that made the 410gr ammo for it. The 71/2" super redhawk was just too much of a good thing for me. It was hard to hold for long with both arms extended and was defiantly a two hand gun due to the weight and recoil so I mostly shot it off the bench. Off the bench it was fun enough and if I was going to shoot handgun silhouettes it would be awesome for that. It certainly would smack the steel hard. That being said, I don't bench shoot handguns. I carry, draw and fire handguns so I went back to a regular 71/2" redhawk in 44 mag that seems for me anyway just right in a cross draw holster.