if only one rifle

[Dan360]

Now compare your .308 against a .270, w/premium ammo. A 150 Hornady sst or interbond with a .525 BC and a better sectional density than your .308/180.
.270/150sd is .279
.308/180sd is .271

400yds vel=2238/energy=1668/drop with mpbr zero of 245yds=15.5. total drop is only 41"
So it hits harder with a better SD, has almost a foot less drop, and time of flight to a moving target @400 is considerably better.
Tell me how well the .308 keeps up again?

Sorry bud, I've been having these discussions for almost 40 years. The .280ai or .270 vastly exceeds the .308 on game. We're not punching paper here.
I've seen more than one elk make it over the next ridge with a 300+ yd .308 round in them. And decent shots too. Right in the ribs and they penciled through without expanding. 1800 fps is the minimum recommended velocity for expansion on most premium bullets. At 400yds your .308/180 is out of gas. Back the weight down to get MV up and you lose too much due to lower BC.

All those numbers are great but your average Joe isn't a good enough shot beyond normal hunting ranges to realize all of those "advantages". 300 yards is an awful long shot for most guys. At 300 yards, you aren't giving up anything between a 270, 7mm-08, 280, 308, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag or whatever. People just aren't good enough in the field to realize the 1 or 2 inches difference in drop. Deer and elk just aren't sensitive enough to feel that extra 50 or even 200 ft lbs of energy. A properly constructed bullet from any of those calibers in their standard weight ranges will do the job.

I take guys out to a meadow that isn't too far from work and let them shoot at a deer mock-up from 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. You have to walk in about 1/2 mile from a gate to get to it and I tell them to bring whatever they are willing to carry. People start missing at 200 yards and almost all of them are missing beyond 300 yards. You can AI whatever cartridge you want and its not gonna fix crappy shooting.

And from a numbers standpoint, its not likely that someone is going to pick a 180gr bullet from a 308 to go shooting 400 yards. Most 308s are 1 in 12 twist and shoot better with bullets with less bearing surface. I'd load 150gr Barnes MRX on a decent charge of Varget and weight retention will be more than any 150gr bullet from a 270, unless its a barnes as well. You can shoot a lighter bullet if its tough. All the BC stuff doesn't matter out to 400 yards anyway. Until you get to real long range, all that stuff is just numbers to get people confused.

 

[Grizzly_A]

OP... you may want to call Coctailer he has good prices on the Savages, buying a long gun in WA will also save you the OR background fee.

What What? How does that work?

I take guys out to a meadow that isn't too far from work and let them shoot at a deer mock-up from 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. You have to walk in about 1/2 mile from a gate to get to it and I tell them to bring whatever they are willing to carry. People start missing at 200 yards and almost all of them are missing beyond 300 yards. You can AI whatever cartridge you want and its not gonna fix crappy shooting.

Where is this range? Sounds like a blast! Do you leave the mockups up?

Love the thread and the discussion. Given the availability of what is at BiMart rack, the 270/30-06 are a great recommendation. But you can't beat the .338-.35 calibers or a 45-70.

To the OP, don't worry about not seeing animals the first year. Either go with someone who is willing to act as your guide or take your time. It takes some time to understand how to act in the woods, and which areas are more likely to have animals in them, sometimes several seasons before you get a handle on it.

 

[fijekladias]

All those numbers are great but your average Joe isn't a good enough shot beyond normal hunting ranges to realize all of those "advantages". 300 yards is an awful long shot for most guys. At 300 yards, you aren't giving up anything between a 270, 7mm-08, 280, 308, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag or whatever. People just aren't good enough in the field to realize the 1 or 2 inches difference in drop. Deer and elk just aren't sensitive enough to feel that extra 50 or even 200 ft lbs of energy. A properly constructed bullet from any of those calibers in their standard weight ranges will do the job.

I take guys out to a meadow that isn't too far from work and let them shoot at a deer mock-up from 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. You have to walk in about 1/2 mile from a gate to get to it and I tell them to bring whatever they are willing to carry. People start missing at 200 yards and almost all of them are missing beyond 300 yards. You can AI whatever cartridge you want and its not gonna fix crappy shooting.

And from a numbers standpoint, its not likely that someone is going to pick a 180gr bullet from a 308 to go shooting 400 yards. Most 308s are 1 in 12 twist and shoot better with bullets with less bearing surface. I'd load 150gr Barnes MRX on a decent charge of Varget and weight retention will be more than any 150gr bullet from a 270, unless its a barnes as well. You can shoot a lighter bullet if its tough. All the BC stuff doesn't matter out to 400 yards anyway. Until you get to real long range, all that stuff is just numbers to get people confused.

Exactly how I would respond if I ever had the time. Bottomline, it's about putting the round in the boiler house.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I didn't pick the "ballistics chart" argument,
nor the 180gr .30 bullet,
nor the Remington core-lokt,
nor the 400yd distance.

Oh, and 12" is more than a couple inches,
250ft/lbs is more than a "little more" energy that an animal can't feel.
And 400 more fps means more than the 1800fps minimum required to make the bullet open (mushroom) that most premium bullets require.

I learned to shoot at an early age. And I learned to shoot correctly. 3 years in the DCM (now CMP) will do that. My longest kill was on a LARGE mulie (that was walking) and was well over 350 yds (paced off, before the days of laser rangefinders) and that buck dropped like stone. I did that from a sitting position, the only rest I had was my knees.
The 150gr .270 sierra SPBT had gone completely through both shoulders and was gone, leaving the shoulder bones in pieces the size of a fingernail. The bullet's SD gets the credit, not what it's made of.
The .270s and .280 class bullets offer SDs and BCs that .30 cal bullets need significantly more weight to get to. To shoot that class of bullets as well, one needs to follow Huntnfish's advice and go 300WM or WSM.

I have seen 2 different elk end up in someone else's camp because they put the kill shot 2nd round in them. The unfortunate hunter (from our camp) was carrying his trusty .308 loaded with "premium" 180s. In both cases we had a chance to inspect the bulls while they were being gutted and the '08 bullets had penciled through without opening. Even though they were both lung shots, and would have killed eventually, the elk made it 1/2 mile or more because of lack of terminal bullet performance. It wasn't the bullet's fault, it just wasn't moving fast enough to expand.

Pencil hole going in and dime size hole going out. Not enough velocity to get the job done on the part of the .308. I knew the guy that shot them was a great shot, as I had competed against him in the DCM and he knew his stuff.
He showed up in camp the next year with a 300WM, lesson learned.

So if you want to argue for the "advantages" of the .308, go ahead. The '08s claim to fame is accuracy, due in part to the small powder capacity. With the right bullet, at limited ranges, that can equate to ethical kills. At long ranges a 180gr class bullet isn't the right bullet for the .308 in a hunting situation, when placed "in the boiler room." Stick with light for caliber and keep your shots under 300yds and you should be okay. Now if you are good enough and lucky enough to make head/neck shots, go for it!
Just MHO.
Do as you like.

 

[Dan360]

12 inches difference? At what range? 500 yards? Like I said before, your average hunter and even some of your very good hunters can't hit deer at that range. Only your specialized long-range guys who practice at that art are capable of that. So why, when it comes standard hunting situations, is trajectory even an issue?

I looked at what I'm getting from a 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a 308, which is an average velocity of 2850 from a 22 inch barreled rifle. With a 200 yard zero, I'm dropping 22 to 25 inches at 400 yards and about 46 inches at 500. I know this from shooting butcher paper and charting my own trajectories, not using a factory chart.

With the same bullet loaded in my 300 Win Mag at 3300 fps from a 26 inch barrel, I'm dropping 35 inches at 500 yards. That's less than 12 inches between a magnum and a short-action standard cartridge. At 400 yards, the difference is only about 7 or 8 inches.

For the SD and BC argument, I've also loaded 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in a 7mm Rem Mag. These should have a higher BC and SD than a 150gr .308 of the same type from either a 308 win or 300 win. These were loaded at 3100 from a 26 inch barrel. This load follows the same trajectory as my 300 win. Which is still not different enough at normal hunting ranges to matter. These differences only become apparent at 400+ yards.

At 300 yards, all three of these rifles drop within 2 inches of each other. The 300 Win is the flattest at 6 inches, the 7mm Rem about 6 1/2 or so and the 308 win at about 8 inches. I doubt anyone is good enough in the field to notice 1 1/2 inches difference in drop on an animal. Even if they could, 2 inches doesn't drop you out of an 8 inch vital zone.

As far as the 308 and 30-06 not having enough power to kill elk, I think that's laughable. None of the elk I've ever shot at with a 180gr Nosler Partition ever went more than 20 yards. Most were dumped on the spot. Same goes for any deer out to 403 yards with a 150gr Ballistic Tip. Choose the right bullet for you intended game and most likely impact velocity, you'll be fine. The limiting factor won't have anything to do with your rifle or cartridge of choice.

 

[Dan360]

Where is this range? Sounds like a blast! Do you leave the mockups up?

Love the thread and the discussion. Given the availability of what is at BiMart rack, the 270/30-06 are a great recommendation. But you can't beat the .338-.35 calibers or a 45-70.

To the OP, don't worry about not seeing animals the first year. Either go with someone who is willing to act as your guide or take your time. It takes some time to understand how to act in the woods, and which areas are more likely to have animals in them, sometimes several seasons before you get a handle on it.

The range is outside of Shelton, WA. Its not really much of a range. Its an open grass meadow that has a natural berm at the far end. We've cut "deer" out of a big sheet of plywood and then we staple fresh paper grocery bags to it when we shoot so we know where we are hitting. When it gets too shot up, we'll replace it. We just leave it out there.

Its a great tool for practicing field shooting. There are stumps and small trees here and there to use as rests if you can get comfortable. With the grass, its not always practical to go prone or use a bi-pod, so that really handicaps us. The thing is, all of that occurs naturally where we hunt. Being able to adapt is huge when it comes to seeing your buck in an area that is less than ideal to shoot from.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Choose the right bullet for you intended game and most likely impact velocity, you'll be fine. The limiting factor won't have anything to do with your rifle or cartridge of choice.

You said it, not me. Check the impact velocity at impact range. Cartridge has everything to do with it @400yds and beyond.

Dan you need to read the criteria that started this "argument."
Like I said;
I didn't pick the "ballistics chart" argument,
nor the 180gr .30 bullet,
nor the Remington core-lokt,
nor the 400yd distance.

You are choosing the correct (IMO) weight bullets for the .308 at longer ranges.
the 180 isn't it.

I didn't bring up the 400 yd figure, someone else did. And if you check your drop charts the 180/.308 vs the 140-150/.270 you will find 10" or more difference in drop, depending on the load.
But don't tell me you aren't giving up SD and BC when you drop the .30 down to 150gr class bullets because the numbers don't back up the claim. At <300 there's little difference. Beyond that range the difference gets progressively worse.
My 150/.270 loads are right at 3000fps out of my 24" barrel. The .525 BC is from Hornady's SST, which I have been using of late. Their interbond offers the same BC.

Face it, if the .308 would do everything fijekladias seems to think it will,(at 400 yds) you wouldn't even own your 300WM.

 

[Jamie6.5]

With the same bullet loaded in my 300 Win Mag at 3300 fps from a 26 inch barrel, I'm dropping 35 inches at 500 yards. That's less than 12 inches between a magnum and a short-action standard cartridge. At 400 yards, the difference is only about 7 or 8 inches.

I contend that "7 or 8 inches" is certainly enough to make the difference between a dead animal and one that lives another day. Wounded and maybe left to die unfound.

My beef (if you will) with 180/.308 shooters isn't even the drop issue. A good shooter can overcome that. The issue is terminal performance. Without enough velocity the bullets won't exceed the minimum impact velocity to open up.
Unfortunately few bullet makers list their min velocity. Nosler is one that does, and it should be factored in when one chooses the cartridge, max range and bullet weight on game.
That's the responsible way to do it.
Your mileage may vary.
Again: Do as you like.

 

[Dan360]

I understand what you're saying to a certain degree, but I think you're also splitting hairs a bit. I never said SD and BC weren't important at all. They just aren't that important in the scope of normal hunting ranges.

Most Nosler bullets, and I'm guessing most other conventional bullets, open up fine until velocity drops below 1800 fps. With that in mind, even the 308 pushes any weight of bullet that you can find in factory ammo fast enough to stay over 1800 fps out to 500 yards. Some of your mono-metal bullets like the Barnes require more velocity to open up.

There is no fact that my owning a 300 WM has anything to do with a 308 not being effective at 400 yards. My longest shot on game at 403 yards was with a 30-06 using 180gr Nosler Partition. Not a really fast load at an average of 2750. The bullet performed perfectly and dropped the deer. I would have taken the same shot with a 308. My 1 in 10 twist 30-06 likes longer bullets and my 1 in 12 twist 308 likes shorter ones. That is one of the deciding factors on bullet weight for me. I'd have taken that shot using a 150gr bullet and probably would have made it, just in the same.

I think the reason I'm such a stead-fast defender of the 308 and 30-06 is that I do own a 300 WM and it really doesn't do anything that the standard cartridges wont do either. I've shot all three and have realized that people read way too many gun magazines.

You see more people ditching their magnums for standard cartridges nowadays. I see people who are completely afraid of their 300 super-pooper magnum. Most shooters are not experienced enough to deal with that sort of recoil and muzzle blast and still shoot accurately in the field. Its my opinion that people should buy rifles that fit them and cartridges that they can shoot effectively. If that's a 308, 270, 7mm-08, 280, 30-06, whatever, buy it and be happy with it. Learn to shot it well. They all kill just fine and you're not going to make a measurably bad choice. People read way too many gun magazines.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I understand what you're saying to a certain degree, but I think you're also splitting hairs a bit. I never said SD and BC weren't important at all. They just aren't that important in the scope of normal hunting ranges.

Everybody has a different "normal" hunting range. Mine happens to be a personal max of 450. I chose that based on my gun/load/ballistics.

Most Nosler bullets, and I'm guessing most other conventional bullets, open up fine until velocity drops below 1800 fps. With that in mind, even the 308 pushes any weight of bullet that you can find in factory ammo fast enough to stay over 1800 fps out to 500 yards.

Someone else chose the criteria of 400 yds and quoted Remington's .308/180 core-lokt at 1800fps@400 yds. Remington actually says 1818@400. At 500 they claim 1644. That is the fastest of their 180/.308 combos. So by your own standards >400, it's out of gas.

I've shot all three and have realized that people read way too many gun magazines.

So have I. And we agree, but we are "paper whipping" here. Someone else wanted to whip paper so I chimed in. Most probably do read too many shooting magazines. My opinion of most gun writers is pretty low. They'd all have us shooting "eargersplittenloudenboomers" if it were up to them.

You see more people ditching their magnums for standard cartridges nowadays.

True that. I ditched mine (30-.338WM) when I gave up the long range match game. The object there was to launch a 200gr bullet at/over 3kfps. I did it. Rather well too, but with a light rifle, it took the fun out of it.

But there was a reason I kept the .270. I had learned enough about how to shoot, and when flat shooting and hard hitting is considered, it's max effective range is impressive. Flat shooting and hard hitting is all about compromise. And when light rifle recoil is factored in, the factory loaded winners are almost always the .280(AI), .270 and 7mmRM. The .308 is capable of "lobbing" bullets accurately, which is something I don't care to do.
(For non factory loadings, I have my 6.5 wildcats that can smoke them all.)

So that brings us back to the "peeing match" I had hoped to avoid here, (thus my initial remark about the age of the '06vs.270 argument) but maybe someone can learn from it.

You have your standards and I have mine. Thankfully, we are the only ones that MUST live with them.

 

[orygun]

To the OP, Mr. ars
Did you make up your mind based on where this thread went? :winkkiss:

Let us know when and if you decide. I'm curious to know.

Sure seems like you started up a pretty good pissin match!

Orygun

 

[ars]

Now i am a confused. Maybe I should try bow hunting

 

[andy*]

Great now we will discuss the merits of a longbow over a compound bow....LOL
Andy

 

[Dan360]

There is something really important to be learned from Jaime6.5 and I. If you don't want to be an opinionated number-splitter, stick to hunting and don't cross the line of being a rifle nut! Once your a rifle nut like me, and sounds like Jaime6.5 as well, you'll always be chasing the "perfect" rifle and you'll spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on rifles that you'll get rid of anyway.

:beer:

 

[Jamie6.5]

Once your a rifle nut like me, and sounds like Jaime6.5 as well, you'll always be chasing the "perfect" rifle and you'll spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on rifles that you'll get rid of anyway.
:beer:

Get RID OF!?! You blasphemer you!!
:beer: to ya!

 

[Dan360]

Get RID OF!?! You blasphemer you!!
:beer: to ya!

I guess I'm a rifle bulimic. I tend to binge and then purge . Hence the 223 and 300 WM that I'm selling right now.

 

[fijekladias]

Wonderful posting and a pleasure to have some well informed individuals chime in. I did bring up the ballistics tables in the beginning because I do get tired of people saying certain calibers can't do this or that, not just limited to the .270/.308/30.06 arguments of old. And my intent was simply to show ballistically speaking that at average Joe hunting ranges all rounds are more than sufficient. To the original OP as well, hope you got what you were looking for .

 

[Jamie6.5]

I guess I'm a rifle bulimic. I tend to binge and then purge . Hence the 223 and 300 WM that I'm selling right now.

Probably an example I should follow but,...

I do have an '06 I'd like to sell. But only because I didn't buy it to be a safe queen and it turns out it's rather rare.
Oh well.
I could be worse, I suppose. I could have paid more than it's worth.

 

[ars]

so in the end due to my shooting inexperience any rife will work fine. I'll go with the 30.06 since that was the first response to my question.

 

[Jamie6.5]

so in the end due to my shooting inexperience any rife will work fine. I'll go with the 30.06 since that was the first response to my question.

Good choice ARS!
The one I am selling is only my fourth!
Oddly enough, my first rifle was also an '06. But it was my DCM match gun. A Spfld '03.