if only one rifle

[ars]

I am new to hunting. Last year was my first time and I never saw any animals. I have a model 94 30/30 now but it is from 1949 and in very good condition so I don't want to carry it out in the rain any more, and I was told it was under powered for elk. I'm looking at the bi-mart savages w/ scope and was wondering what you all thought of them and what cal. would be best for both deer and elk.

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[orygun]

You're probably going to hear a bunch of guys tell you to buy something different and much more expensive. They'll give you all kinds of reasons to pick a different caliber, too. But you'll do just fine with one of those Savage packages and I'd suggest one in 30-06. I use a different gun, but it's chambered in 30-06. No deer or elk I've ever shot needed more than one bullet.

 

[Member 5605]

Every elk I shot with a 30-06 (except my first which I was nervous) required more than one well placed shot.

 

[Jamie6.5]

For all around, do-it-all budget rifle/round I would say .270, and Savage or Remmy. But the argument between '06 and .270 owners is older than I am. (old indeed)
Honestly it would be a toss-up.
Don't let anyone tell you a .308 will keep up over 300 yds., because it won't.

 

[branchbuster]

Hard to beat the old 30-06!

 

[ars]

I was leaning towad the 30-06 , thanks for the input.

 

[Izzy]

For all around, do-it-all budget rifle/round I would say .270, and Savage or Remmy. But the argument between '06 and .270 owners is older than I am. (old indeed)
Honestly it would be a toss-up.
Don't let anyone tell you a .308 will keep up over 300 yds., because it won't.

 

[fijekladias]

For all around, do-it-all budget rifle/round I would say .270, and Savage or Remmy. But the argument between '06 and .270 owners is older than I am. (old indeed)
Honestly it would be a toss-up.
Don't let anyone tell you a .308 will keep up over 300 yds., because it won't.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from pouring over ballistic charts the .308 is so close to the .06 at 300 yards and out that the difference is very little. Why do you say the .308 will not keep up over 300 yards?
For example a 180 Grain Remington Soft Pointed Core-Lokt in .06 vs the same round in .308 has the following characteristics.
.06 - Range 400 yards, 1864fps, 1388ft-lbs, -48.88 drop
.308 - Range 400 yards, 1800fps, 1294ft-lbs, -52.16 drop

Seems like the capabilities and skill of the shooter is ultimately what is going to dictate whether an animal is taken or not. Thoughts?

 

[andy*]

I would vote for the .30-06. I have used it on Deer, Black Bear and Elk. All were within 200 yards. Where I live 200 yards is a far shot at a animal. The .30-06 is a excellent choice for North American hunting. You have a wide array of bullet weights from 125 to 220 grain. Ammo is also commonly found.
I would THINK that .308 Winchester would be similar, however I have only used this round on paper or other things, not a game animal, so no help there, sorry.
Andy

 

[hntn&fshn]

ars, What I am going to add to this discussion will cut against the grain a bit because many folks buy specific calibers of rifles based on tradition rather than actual ballistic statistics. Folks buy certain calibers based on "my dad owned a ..." or such and such caliber has "killed more animals than any other caliber" etc., etc. Go online and study lots of ballistic charts for various bullet sizes and calibers and then make an informed decision.

If you are sure you do not want to buy anymore guns in the near future then I think it would be fine to purchase a rifle in 270 or 30.06. Bear in mind that the terminal effect of these two calibers is almost identical. One shoots a little higher velocity and the other shoots a little larger bullet but again, end result is the same in regards to TE.

That being said, I have owned these "all around" calibers for many years and killed a few critters with them. However, my rifles in these calibers have found new owners over the past few years as I begun to get involved in loading my own ammunition which forced me to study ballistics and as a result, I have been purchasing a variety of rifles in various calibers. In other words, I have learned after about 25 years of stubborn traditional thinking, that all of the calibers on each side of the "all around" calibers is ballistically superior. If a hunter decides that he wants to shoot a .27 cal bullet, why not buy a 270 WSM or 7mm mag? If he wants to shoot a .308 cal bullet, why not buy a magnum caliber - the rifles all cost the same... Right about here is where some folks will try to make an issue out of recoil but the truth is, a good recoil pad on any magnum rifle makes it completely manageable. I have personally witnessed small women shoot 300 and 338 win mags without accuracy issues because they were not "told" it was going to "hurt".

My son just bought his first big game hunting rifle this week and after much research he ended up with a Remington XCR II in 300 win mag. It felt good to know that my son understood the fact that if a shooter decides that he wants to shoot a .308 bullet then why not have one of the most efficient calibers ever made for the .308 bullet?

Last point. IMHO, some folks put way too much emphasis on cost of ammunition when making a decision on a rifle/caliber purchase. Realistically, the money the average person spends over his lifetime on hunting ammunition is negligible compared to the overall cost of hunting - buy whatever caliber you want. I mean seriously, 30.06 ammo can be found on sale for $18/20 whereas .300 win mag ammo is about $20/20. Is that going to make or brake a guy? Even if you paid double for WBY or RUM ammo, it is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Now compare your .308 against a .270, w/premium ammo. A 150 Hornady sst or interbond with a .525 BC and a better sectional density than your .308/180.
.270/150sd is .279
.308/180sd is .271

400yds vel=2238/energy=1668/drop with mpbr zero of 245yds=15.5. total drop is only 41"
So it hits harder with a better SD, has almost a foot less drop, and time of flight to a moving target @400 is considerably better.
Tell me how well the .308 keeps up again?

Sorry bud, I've been having these discussions for almost 40 years. The .280ai or .270 vastly exceeds the .308 on game. We're not punching paper here.
I've seen more than one elk make it over the next ridge with a 300+ yd .308 round in them. And decent shots too. Right in the ribs and they penciled through without expanding. 1800 fps is the minimum recommended velocity for expansion on most premium bullets. At 400yds your .308/180 is out of gas. Back the weight down to get MV up and you lose too much due to lower BC.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from pouring over ballistic charts the .308 is so close to the .06 at 300 yards and out that the difference is very little. Why do you say the .308 will not keep up over 300 yards?
For example a 180 Grain Remington Soft Pointed Core-Lokt in .06 vs the same round in .308 has the following characteristics.
.06 - Range 400 yards, 1864fps, 1388ft-lbs, -48.88 drop
.308 - Range 400 yards, 1800fps, 1294ft-lbs, -52.16 drop

Seems like the capabilities and skill of the shooter is ultimately what is going to dictate whether an animal is taken or not. Thoughts?

 

[Jamie6.5]

The .300 win mag is a great round for elk. But most aren't in the price range the OP sounds like he wants to spend at Bi-Mart on a pre-scoped Savage.

 

[Intoodeep]

Good points H&F....My advise would be the savage packages at bi-mart IMHO are the best deal on the market. The scope is not bad at all and it's waterproof. One piece of advise get the accutrigger or plan on putting an aftermarket trigger on your list they run $80 for a good one.
The 308 or 30-06 will hold the best resale value.

 

[Intoodeep]

The .300 win mag is a great round for elk. But most aren't in the price range the OP sounds like he wants to spend at Bi-Mart on a pre-scoped Savage.

30-06 & 300wm are the same price

 

[Jamie6.5]

30-06 & 300wm are the same price

Well okay then! The only ones I have seen have been the real popular calibers.
.243/.308/.270/.30-06

I stand corrected.

 

[Intoodeep]

Well okay then! The only ones I have seen have been the real popular calibers.
.243/.308/.270/.30-06

I stand corrected.

I think it's a small action, large action price difference....Anyway you look at it there is much bang for the buck within a Savage package .

OP... you may want to call Coctailer he has good prices on the Savages, buying a long gun in WA will also save you the OR background fee.

ETA: I would buy this before it's goneRem 700 in .270 from a very trusted seller

 

[Jamie6.5]

ETA: I would buy this before it's goneRem 700 in .270 from a very trusted seller

No doubt. A great deal.

 

[orygun]

My son just bought his first big game hunting rifle this week and after much research he ended up with a Remington XCR II in 300 win mag. It felt good to know that my son understood the fact that if a shooter decides that he wants to shoot a .308 bullet then why not have one of the most efficient calibers ever made for the .308 bullet?

Uhh, let's pick your statement apart a little. The caliber is .308. The 300 Win Mag is a cartridge. Efficient? to a point. The .308 Win or the .30-06 are more efficient than the 300 Win Mag because they use less powder for the FPS they push the same bullet. The .308 wins this category out of these three cartridges with the '06 coming in next.

Maybe you meant the cartridge that can boost the .308 bullet to the highest speed and there fore the most energy and flattest trajectory? In that case, the 300 Win Mag is "better" than the '06 or the .308 Win, but it ain't the king of the .308 class either. Both the Weatherby Mag and the Remington Ultra Mag are faster, just to name a couple.

Granted, all of this is splitting hairs. I'd not feel "undergunned" hunting deer or elk with any of these. The .270, .308, 30-06 and 300 Win Mag are all excellent choices. And there are several more.

It really gets down to how well can you shoot what you're packin'? Pick one, buy it and get practicing.

 

[orygun]

I would buy this before it's goneRem 700 in .270 from a very trusted seller

I was lookin' at that, too. Seems to be a very good deal. Jack O'Connor would be proud!

 

[hntn&fshn]

Uhh, let's pick your statement apart a little. The caliber is .308. The 300 Win Mag is a cartridge. Efficient? to a point. The .308 Win or the .30-06 are more efficient than the 300 Win Mag because they use less powder for the FPS they push the same bullet. The .308 wins this category out of these three cartridges with the '06 coming in next.

Maybe you meant the cartridge that can boost the .308 bullet to the highest speed and there fore the most energy and flattest trajectory? In that case, the 300 Win Mag is "better" than the '06 or the .308 Win, but it ain't the king of the .308 class either. Both the Weatherby Mag and the Remington Ultra Mag are faster, just to name a couple.

Granted, all of this is splitting hairs. I'd not feel "undergunned" hunting deer or elk with any of these. The .270, .308, 30-06 and 300 Win Mag are all excellent choices. And there are several more.

It really gets down to how well can you shoot what you're packin'? Pick one, buy it and get practicing.

Regarding your caliber/cartridge statement; I think it is apparent to most of the readers here that I deliberately chose the term "caliber' because that is what I have learned that many new rifle buyers think of when referring to the cartridge size. If you ask 10 new perspective gun buyers what "caliber" they wish to buy, at least 9 will say .308, 30.06, .300 win mag, etc - all shoot the same .308 caliber bullet of course but some folks don't know that.

Regarding the low powered .308 caliber guns being more efficient because they burn less powder...I will have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Let’s take a close look at that. For the hand loader, .308, 30.06, 300 WSM and 300 win mag cases are all the same price per 50. Even though the .308 case is the smallest, it is exactly the same cost as the magnum brass. Next, primers - same cost, next bullets - we've already discussed the fact that they shoot the same bullet so same cost there. Last component is the powder. 1 pound of powder costs < $25. 7000grs/pound = .0035 per gr. A 30.06 case takes 54 grs of H4350 and 300 WM case takes 67grs, both loaded with 180 gr .308 caliber bullets. So 13 grs more at .0035/gr = .04 per round cost. For .04, you can shoot the same bullet with a flatter trajectory and better terminal energy far down range if need be. No, I think I will chose one of the magnum .308 calibers for .04. That is efficiency to me.

Lastly, regarding your 300 WM/ "king" statement; note that I never made the statement that the 300 Win Mag is the "king" of the .308 caliber chamberings. I never said it was the flattest shooting or most potent. I did say that it is the most "efficient" and IMHO, I will stick by that statement. The reason I stand by the statement is because you will note that I did not include the WBY or RUM in my above cost analysis because they are very expensive to shoot - even for the hand loader. The 300 WM has a significant ballistic improvement (only speaking long range here) over the non-magnum .308's but as I have shown, the cost is virtually the same. This is not true with the other 308 caliber magnums - they have a slight ballistic advantage over the WM yet a definite cost increase (brass alone is double the cost) and that is why I have no need for them personally.

One last point: We are really splitting hairs here because realistically, most hunters shoot under 300 yards and no animal will notice the difference between the popular hunting calibers whether magnum or not. My main point is that since the rifles all cost the same, and flatter shooting guns are easier for most shooters to be accurate with, why not shoot one that offers the easiest chance to be accurate if the rare chance for a long range shot arises? Just an opinion but it makes economical sense to me…

Good shooting!