Hypothetical: Best firearms/etc. for N. America 15,000 years ago??

[ZigZagZeke]

Not sure about making BP powder from materials found in nature - not to mention I would still need projectiles and/or something to cast them - weight wise it might just be better to take the equivalent weight in ammo.

I have personally found naturally occurring sulfur crystals. Charcoal is available everywhere there's fire. Salt peter occurs naturally as well, but can also be extracted from manure:

https://www.hunker.com/12611374/how-to-extract-potassium-nitrate-from-soil

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Considering the aforementioned availability of ingredients, I'd opt for a large caliber black powder rifle, maybe a flintlock so I don't need caps or primers. The buffalo hunters did quite well on buffalo with black powder. I'd also want a very good compound bow and a large supply of arrows, even though arrows are almost infinitely re-usable. Next, a lever or pump action .22 LR rifle for small game, and a .45 acp pistol to deter indigenous humans. It shouldn't take many instances of use to convince other humans that you are best left alone. With judicious use, a few thousand rounds of .22 LR should last you a lifetime and should be reasonably portable. A good sword would go a long way toward self-defense from other humans as well. Something like my old tournament combat sword:

 

[OldBroad44]

I have personally found naturally occurring sulfur crystals. Charcoal is available everywhere there's fire. Salt peter occurs naturally as well, but can also be extracted from manure:

https://www.hunker.com/12611374/how-to-extract-potassium-nitrate-from-soil

I've lived dozens of places and been a rock hound, and never saw any sulfur crystals. If you found any you would want to take it with you. likewise if you found or made salt peter. Easier to take ammo.

Article on extracting potassium nitrate from manure calls for a six foot pile of manure from farm animals you don't have, an enclosure made from concrete blocks, A piece of plywood, A tarp, and pouring manure from farm animals over the pile once a week for several months. And a bucket. You aren't going to be able to do this while traveling around. If you manage it at all, you'll need to take the salt Peter you make with you. Might as well take finished ammo.

The article gives no yield numbers. When people really do a process, they tell you yields. How much salt peter did this six foot pile of manure and unknown amounts of farm animal urine give? A thimble full? I suspect none at all, as I doubt the author of the article ever did this. I don't doubt one can make salt peter from manure and urine. I do doubt that under the conditions of our thought experiment making black powder is a better option than taking ammo.

 

[OldBroad44]

Considering the aforementioned availability of ingredients, I'd opt for a large caliber black powder rifle, maybe a flintlock so I don't need caps or primers. The buffalo hunters did quite well on buffalo with black powder. I'd also want a very good compound bow and a large supply of arrows, even though arrows are almost infinitely re-usable. Next, a lever or pump action .22 LR rifle for small game, and a .45 acp pistol to deter indigenous humans. It shouldn't take many instances of use to convince other humans that you are best left alone. With judicious use, a few thousand rounds of .22 LR should last you a lifetime and should be reasonably portable. A good sword would go a long way toward self-defense from other humans as well. Something like my old tournament combat sword:
View attachment 873025View attachment 873028

The buffalo hunters might have done well enough with black powder they brought with them from civilization. Did they ever make their own?

My abortive attempt at archery involved lost and broken arrows. If the points were flint, if you hit a rock it probably shatters. And at best the points have to be reworked regularly to sharpen them. Archeology sites often have points that have been reworked down to nubs, then discarded. I think archery is a great choice if you have that skill. But I doubt arrows are " "almost infinitely reusable".

I doubt if a solo human could deter a tribe with a .45. You're in their hunting grounds. You have to sleep. If you leave your camp they can rob or destroy it while you are gone. And will once you have killed any of them. A .45 semiautomatic doesn't have a greater killing range than an arrow. And they have more shots. They actually outgun you. Rich land that supports plenty of game or fish was usually taken and held by force. The tribe whose hunting grounds you have invaded fought some tribe for that land and fought off challenging tribes since. They aren't going to be deterred by a sole interloper with a handgun.

I agree that .22 ammo is especially advantageous. But will a few thousand rounds last a lifetime? Certainly if you never shoot it. One round would last a lifetime under those circumstances. We need numbers. Let's say your "few thousand rounds" is 5000, 10 bricks. You're talking about using the .22 rifle for small game. Lets suppose two or three dinners of small game a week. Say about 10 rounds a week. So you would run out of ammo in roughly ten years. How old are you?

 

[The Heretic]

Not so sure all indigenous peoples were so competitive and war like that they sought to eliminate all possible human competition on sight. I could be wrong because I am not that knowledgable on their culture, and I did not live in those times, but I was under the impression that some (many) tribes/clans were mostly peaceful if not molested.

Of course, we don't really know what the culture of the people of the Pleistocene era (thousands of years before europeans encountered the indigenous peoples of N. America) were like - it was long before there was any written history in N. America.

 

[OldBroad44]

Not so sure all indigenous peoples were so competitive and war like that they sought to eliminate all possible human competition on sight. I could be wrong because I am not that knowledgable on their culture, and I did not live in those times, but I was under the impression that some (many) tribes/clans were mostly peaceful if not molested.

Of course, we don't really know what the culture of the people of the Pleistocene era (thousands of years before europeans encountered the indigenous peoples of N. America) were like - it was long before there was any written history in N. America.

I think ancient human hunter gatherers, if like the "modern" hunter gatherers, had flexibility with respect to how they dealt with strangers. Those who didn't, over the ages, probably missed out on critical inventions such as the bow. And undoubtedly when new land opened and there was more rich land than needed, things were likely different than when all the rich land is "full". But thriving humans overpopulated pretty fast. At that point the more warlike and competent at war or merely bigger tribes end up with the rich fertile lands or salmon filled rivers. And the less aggressive or less powerful tribes end up on the more marginal land. Here in Oregon, the lands along the Columbia were occupied by powerful tribes that prevented others from access to the salmon and controlled the trade. They had annual trade fairs attended by everyone else. They traded thousands of pounds of dried salmon to others , including the much weaker Kalapooya Indians from my Corvallis/Albany area, who traded camas cakes, basketry, and other hand crafts for dried salmon and other goods.

When tribes suffered disasters they were maybe even more capable of flexibility. When the Hidatsa and Mandan Indians of the upper Midwest first met, they had both been drastically reduced by disease. One evening a Hidatsa war or scouting party stood on one side of a broad river and observed a village of Mandans. The Hidatsa were nonagricultural. The Mandans were excellent gardeners and plant breeders. The Mandans broke dry ears of parching corn in half, toasted them over a fire, and shot the ears across the river. The next morning, the Hidatsa braves came in peace across the river, wanting to learn about the delicious parching corn. They learned agriculture from the Mandans and settled nearby as welcomed allies. A few generations later the villages merged. (Info from Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden.)

The Indians who greeted the Pilgrims with such tolerance and generosity were on the edge of being wiped out by powerful enemies. They allied with the Pilgrims knowing full well that the Pilgrims would probably ultimately take their lands and wipe them out. But they figured their native enemies would likely destroy them much faster.

I've read that every acorn bearing oak tree and camas meadow in the maritime NW was owned by some particular family or tribe. And if you were caught poaching they killed you.

ZZZ mentioned using his .45 against locals a number of times, figuring that would teach them to leave him alone. I doubt it. I think that that approach would insult and challenge the honor and power of the tribe and masculinity of all its men. And start a p1ssing contest, even if the natives didn't really care much about the land used by the interloper. Many other approaches might work. Such as the more classical giving of gifts to the Chiefs. Knives were really valued as gifts or trade goods. Imagine what it was like when all your cutting edges shattered. A metal knife would change your life. If you hope to have good relations with locals, the stuff you take needs to include gifts.

 

[The Heretic]

One of the things I would take a lot of would be knives. Quite a few inexpensive Moras that would be appreciated by the women, and some decent Gerber BG pattern "survival" fixed & folding knives (high value, low cost, the folders are light, but surprisingly tough).

 

[The Heretic]

One of the other things I was thinking about the other night, was bayonets for a number of my long guns.

 

[OldBroad44]

During the cold war era, my dad maintained two orange trunks that were the bug-out shtf supplies. He was military. If he gave word to mother to take a vacation, she would load the two trunks in the boat, hitch boat to car, grab her .22 colt Woodsman and Model 94 .30-30, and fishing gear, and my brother and I with our .22 rifles, and head for a remote predetermined wilderness. Dad was confident with all he had taught us we would do fine. if he lived, would come get us at the all clear.

The trunks included lots of rice and beans that were regularly used and replaced. Salt, pepper, spices, and lots of ammo. Dad had grown up on a farm during the depression. His father was a HS teacherand farmer. But grandad was being paid in script, which was worthless. So the family was surviving on nearly zero money. As were many others. So dad had actually lived for years in an almost totally barter economy.

Dad's trunks included lots of trade goods. What he considered the most valuable trade goods included .22 ammo, salt, pepper, spices, and matches. The kind that light anywhere. He said you can eat well on game if you have salt, pepper, and spices. But just plain it is merely survival, and not enjoyable. Prime farm/ranch meat isn't very enjoyable without salt and spices either.

The trunks started out as standard military. After WWII when dad was reassigned to the lower 48 from Anchorage, all our worldly goods, in 8 military trunks, were shipped to Seattle. Before sending Dad painted all the trunks a bright garish orange. When dad went to the warehouse in Seattle to get his trunks, it was completely filled with military trunks from soldiers being demobilized, all jumbled together in a disorganized pile. When dad asked for his trunks, the warehouse manager said, "Are you out of your mind? You got any idea how many thousands of trunks we got?" "How many orange trunks do you have?" Dad asked. "Eight," the manager responded. Everyone else had to wait months to get their trunks. But the garish orange trunks had been stacked neatly together, separate from the jumble. Dad walked out with his trunks immediately.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I think ancient human hunter gatherers, if like the "modern" hunter gatherers, had flexibility with respect to how they dealt with strangers. Those who didn't, over the ages, probably missed out on critical inventions such as the bow. And undoubtedly when new land opened and there was more rich land than needed, things were likely different than when all the rich land is "full". But thriving humans overpopulated pretty fast. At that point the more warlike and competent at war or merely bigger tribes end up with the rich fertile lands or salmon filled rivers. And the less aggressive or less powerful tribes end up on the more marginal land. Here in Oregon, the lands along the Columbia were occupied by powerful tribes that prevented others from access to the salmon and controlled the trade. They had annual trade fairs attended by everyone else. They traded thousands of pounds of dried salmon to others , including the much weaker Kalapooya Indians from my Corvallis/Albany area, who traded camas cakes, basketry, and other hand crafts for dried salmon and other goods.

When tribes suffered disasters they were maybe even more capable of flexibility. When the Hidatsa and Mandan Indians of the upper Midwest first met, they had both been drastically reduced by disease. One evening a Hidatsa war or scouting party stood on one side of a broad river and observed a village of Mandans. The Hidatsa were nonagricultural. The Mandans were excellent gardeners and plant breeders. The Mandans broke dry ears of parching corn in half, toasted them over a fire, and shot the ears across the river. The next morning, the Hidatsa braves came in peace across the river, wanting to learn about the delicious parching corn. They learned agriculture from the Mandans and settled nearby as welcomed allies. A few generations later the villages merged. (Info from Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden.)

The Indians who greeted the Pilgrims with such tolerance and generosity were on the edge of being wiped out by powerful enemies. They allied with the Pilgrims knowing full well that the Pilgrims would probably ultimately take their lands and wipe them out. But they figured their native enemies would likely destroy them much faster.

I've read that every acorn bearing oak tree and camas meadow in the maritime NW was owned by some particular family or tribe. And if you were caught poaching they killed you.

ZZZ mentioned using his .45 against locals a number of times, figuring that would teach them to leave him alone. I doubt it. I think that that approach would insult and challenge the honor and power of the tribe and masculinity of all its men. And start a p1ssing contest, even if the natives didn't really care much about the land used by the interloper. Many other approaches might work. Such as the more classical giving of gifts to the Chiefs. Knives were really valued as gifts or trade goods. Imagine what it was like when all your cutting edges shattered. A metal knife would change your life. If you hope to have good relations with locals, the stuff you take needs to include gifts.

You make a whole bunch of assumptions that aren't warranted, always assuming the glass is half empty. Salt peter, for instance, can actually be found occurring naturally in bat caves. I just wanted to demonstrate that it CAN be made. Modern broadheads can last quite a while, and be re-used many times if not destroyed during a hunt. I'm sure there are replaceable blades as well. Somehow, the mountain men managed to spend months and years in exactly the situation described, using black powder, hand knives, etc. As for indigenous people, I would leave them alone mostly, perhaps trade with them, until attacked. At that point I want them to understand that there's no profit in disturbing me. The whole point of this thread was what WEAPONS you would take along, not what trade goods you'd use to make friends with the natives.

 

[The Heretic]

You make a whole bunch of assumptions that aren't warranted, always assuming the glass is half empty. Salt peter, for instance, can actually be found occurring naturally in bat caves. I just wanted to demonstrate that it CAN be made. Modern broadheads can last quite a while, and be re-used many times if not destroyed during a hunt. I'm sure there are replaceable blades as well. Somehow, the mountain men managed to spend months and years in exactly the situation described, using black powder, hand knives, etc. As for indigenous people, I would leave them alone mostly, perhaps trade with them, until attacked. At that point I want them to understand that there's no profit in disturbing me. The whole point of this thread was what WEAPONS you would take along, not what trade goods you'd use to make friends with the natives.
View attachment 873444

Yeah - but bI would just not want to rely on finding ammo components in a primitive environment.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Yeah - but bI would just not want to rely on finding ammo components in a primitive environment.

My point was that I would choose at least one black powder weapon because if I ran out of ammunition (I'd take as much black powder with me as was practical) I *COULD* make my own. I've made my own black powder in the past. Nothing to it really, if you have the 3 basic ingredients.

 

[The Heretic]

My point was that I would choose at least one black powder weapon because if I ran out of ammunition (I'd take as much black powder with me as was practical) I *COULD* make my own. I've made my own black powder in the past. Nothing to it really, if you have the 3 basic ingredients.

Yeah, well - .45-70 (one of my original candidates) and .45 LC are both originally BP cartridges. Most straight walled cartridges would work with BP. Of course, for cartridges, one would need primers. One would also need lead in addition to powder - you can't always count on recovering a bullet.

Again, given all the considerations, I would prefer to take more ammo instead of an older BP firearm (e.g., a flintlock).

But to each their own - it is a valid consideration/choice.

 

[Camelfilter]

One of the other things I was thinking about the other night, was bayonets for a number of my long guns.

For defense against humans, should it come to bayonet use?

If so, I'd skip it. Myself.

Figuring indigenous peoples would be far more adept at hands on than I could be is all. Given that they "likely" have lived using the skills, as opposed to a class here & there.

An oversimplified example is this scene from "Cider House Rules":

I am certainly not in the "knife business" (as it were), and even less so in "the bayonet business" (if there were such).

I guess my "point" (haha!) is that I would be better served bringing other various knives as tools vs bayonets is all. General purpose utility, carvers, skinners etc with wood saws serving cross purpose for bone if needs be.

Absolutely have a knife/knives on me all the time, but in the proposed scenario they would far far more likely be utilized as tools. As opposed to weapons.

This, along with the other discussions in this thread on indigenous peoples, gives me of the opinion that if the indeginious peoples of the time wanted to kill an interloper from our time, they could. Likely easily.

They lived field craft. I don't.

So I likely wouldn't hear nor see them unless they wanted me to (or I spot/hear their camp/village whatnot).

Some folks on here have decent field craft, having learned it, lived it & put it into practice. I haven't, so such would be hard lessons learned dealing with predators & game, let alone humans.

IMO.

 

[The Heretic]

Most probably I would die should I need a bayonet, but just in case, it might make the difference, and in that situation I would need every little bit of lethality I could muster - especially if I ran out of ammo. If it made no difference, then so be it.

 

[Dinglenutz]

I have several small knives that are made specifically to double as spear points. I always thought of those more as fishing tools though.

Like this more or less: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B072MP2LZ8

 

[The Heretic]

I have several small knives that are made specifically to double as spear points. I always thought of those more as fishing tools though.

Like this more or less: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B072MP2LZ8

I have some of the CS Bushmans - IIRC, several of the standard ones and one of the Bowie. I am looking at some of the spears and spear points. I see Marbles has some. Also, more knives are now coming out with lash points on the guard.

 

[The Heretic]

Beware the stobor!

Tunnel in the Sky (full text) by Robert Heinlein – Metallicman

metallicman.com

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Beware the stobor!

Tunnel in the Sky (full text) by Robert Heinlein – Metallicman

metallicman.com

Excellent novel for sure...and one of the inspirations for my choice of weapons posted here in this thread.
Andy

 

[The Heretic]

Excellent novel for sure...and one of the inspirations for my choice of weapons posted here in this thread.
Andy

It's been decades since I read it last. I am going to read it again. I suspect it will be a bit dated maybe, but still worth the read. For some things like books and movies, it is worth partaking of them again from the different perspective that a few years gives.