How to handle armed confrontation?

[TAT2D]

Read this again. Especially the second to the last line.
They already have their guns on you.

I keep coming back to the bit of training video that was circulating around here a month or two ago, where the cop, approaching a bad-guy with gun drawn and *aimed* was bested by the bad-guy with hands out of sight, hiding a gun.

Even from prone, bad guy could move to present gun and fire, besting the cop, essentially 100% of the time. Bad guy has already made up his mind what he's going to do and is only acting. Cop has to *react* to motion, analyze threat, decide he needs to fire. A quarter second is all the time the bad guy needs to get the drop.

I suppose if you're being robbed, it's not by someone with a built-in bias to avoid shooting if at all possible, like the cops. But still, there's something to be said for the element of surprise. Keep 'em guessing as long as you can.

MrB

 

[zeezee]

I would try to get the tactical surprise, move across the street, put a vehicle between the two of them, let the dawg off the leash and run after him. But if cornered, you have to figure if their gun is drawn they are ready and willing to pull the trigger, I'd fight. How would depend on the situation but I see no need to go out without a fight.

 

[AKMark]

I haven't taken a handgun class as a civilian, only as a police officer, so I'm not really sure what they teach. I will say that I am not a fan of submission.

My question starts when the BGs take the dropped wallet and start to walk away, why not draw and make a citizen's arrest? Seems that this would be my response and that I would be justified in using whatever reasonable force is necessary to arrest and detain said BGs.

 

[Gunner3456]

I haven't taken a handgun class as a civilian, only as a police officer, so I'm not really sure what they teach. I will say that I am not a fan of submission.

My question starts when the BGs take the dropped wallet and start to walk away, why not draw and make a citizen's arrest? Seems that this would be my response and that I would be justified in using whatever reasonable force is necessary to arrest and detain said BGs.

I don't know what the law is about being "justified in using whatever reasonable force is necessary to arrest and detain said BGs."

What would a lone police officer do if he were on duty, in uniform, was robbed, and then the guys walked away? What if he drew his weapon and ordered them to stop and they didn't? What could he legally do?

My response for my own safety would be to let them go, but that doesn't make me right. This all assumes that they had the unexpected drop on me and I had little choice but to submit to the robbery.

??

 

[gunhummer]

What did the BeeGees ever do besides make some classic 70s disco tunes? I'm sure the Gibbs brothers did some questionable things but there's no reason go bustin' caps on 'em and stuff. Okay, that's lame....

This thread kinda migrated from a bad dream to touch on some of the core issues of using force...

to address the not knowing what's reasonable.... you can try and officers do all the time and new case law can drive what is reasonable. see Graham v. Connor as the baseline today. But people and jurors watch the news bites like those showing the officer firing the shotgun beanbag into the "teenage girl" and arm chair QB etc. However, what wasn't seen in the video bite were the BeeGees that were standing around the two officers while they were trying to gain control of the VIOLATOR. Totallity of the circumstances... the cover officer did not want to get hands on and expose himself and his partner to possible retaliation from these associated BGs that just weren't contemporaneously committing any violations but may have taken tactical advantage if cover officer became decisively engaged in with hands. Everyone hyped this up as unreasonable but I believe the officers were able to articulate those facts and circumstances which made this level of force reasonable.

I just saw a clip of the looney fan running around the Phillies' outfield getting tazed by the bike cop. Is that reasonable? I've already heard those ACQBs criticizing that. What was the alternative? Violator is running, eluding, evasive, so eventually you catch him but you're going hands on and he's more apt to suffer serious injury getting grabbed and probably continuing resistence and getting more thumped. I thought it was reasonable. Pretty smooth belly landing in the turf.... swoop and cuff, probably, nobody hurt beyond the tazing... clip didn't show beyond the miracle on the hudson landing though...

I suppose I should brush up on ORS since I so frequently visit my friendly neighbors to the south.

Here's excerpts from WA law... if I were at fast times at Ridgemont High, I would learn it, know it, live it. But don't take my post for it... I'd go read it all.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;


See also regarding civil suit

RCW 4.24.420
Action by person committing a felony — Defense — Actions under 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983.

It is a complete defense to any action for damages for personal injury or wrongful death that the person injured or killed was engaged in the commission of a felony at the time of the occurrence causing the injury or death and the felony was a proximate cause of the injury or death. However, nothing in this section shall affect a right of action under 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983.


[1987 c 212 § 901; 1986 c 305 § 501.]

And if you really want to read...
<broken link removed>


This is not legal advice. I'm not a lawyer, I didn't play one on TV, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Just some laws citizens should probably know.

 

[Tactical SS]

...I don't typically carry unless I am in a questionable location...

This one always gets me. People who don't carry unless they are in a questionable area filled with questionable people. Those questionable people have legs and/or cars and can leave questionable areas and travel to "safe" areas. Questionable people can be anywhere at anytime. Always carry.

 

[2zuks]

This one always gets me. People who don't carry unless they are in a questionable area filled with questionable people. Those questionable people have legs and/or cars and can leave questionable areas and travel to "safe" areas. Questionable people can be anywhere at anytime. Always carry.

Yep. Never leave home without it. In this day and age, anything can happen anywhere. Better to be prepared than dead.

I would say that the best way to deal with a situation like that is to not find yourself in it to begin with. First off, make yourself a undesireable target. I am a big ugly guy with a shaved head and two big ugley pit bulls. More importantly, I carry myself in a confident manner. For the most part, BG's are going to pass by a person like me and find a easier target. Don't be that target.

Second, I am a very alert and suspicious person, as it sound are some of the rest of you. lol. A BG would have a pretty hard time getting the drop on me if they did select me as a target. I have a pretty good radar, and tend to constantly analyze the environment surrounding me. As others have said, I would find a reason to put enough distance and/or a object between me and the would be attackers. I always carry the glock with a round in the pipe and when my radar goes off I will have my hand very close, or on it.

If in fact the BG did select me as a target and get the jump on me, how I would react would depend on a bunch of specifics that I would have to process quickly.

First off, do they know what they are doing? Are they standing a distace away from me with the guns drawn, fingers on the trigger trained on my chest, or are they up close to me waving their guns around with their trigger finger around the grip planning on fear to obtain their goal?

If it was the former, a person is a lot better off handing their wallet over. Even assuming the element of surprise, it is going to be hard to draw and shoot before they tense their finger. You may do it, but I would consider it a very low success plan. If the sitation is the latter, then a person may be able to take them out, but would have to decide if it was worth the risk. If I did choose that it was smarter to hand my wallet over given the situation, make no mistake I would be ready to react if the situation was going south.

Another thing I would ad is that I don't go anywhere without my knife in a very easy to get to location. If the attackers were up close, which I would suspect they would be in a public area as to not draw attention, a knife is a very valuable close quarters tool.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter. I have only been faced with a armed attacker one time, year ago and it was a knife. I did react and disarmed and injured him without getting cut or stabbed. It could have easily ended differently. Now that I am older and have a family, I may handle the same situation differently. You just don't know until the situation arises how you will actually react.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This one always gets me. People who don't carry unless they are in a questionable area filled with questionable people. Those questionable people have legs and/or cars and can leave questionable areas and travel to "safe" areas. Questionable people can be anywhere at anytime. Always carry.

Right.. no place in modern America is "safe" due to the "questionable" people. Those who assume otherwise may be in for a rude and nasty surprise

Arm yourself and profile, people. Whether it's a meth head, gang member of whatever stripe, street junkie, or simple psycho, look for the indicators that you are in peril!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yep. Never leave home without it. In this day and age, anything can happen anywhere. Better to be prepared than dead.

I would say that the best way to deal with a situation like that is to not find yourself in it to begin with. First off, make yourself a undesireable target. I am a big ugly guy with a shaved head and two big ugley pit bulls. More importantly, I carry myself in a confident manner. For the most part, BG's are going to pass by a person like me and find a easier target. Don't be that target.

Second, I am a very alert and suspicious person, as it sound are some of the rest of you. lol. A BG would have a pretty hard time getting the drop on me if they did select me as a target. I have a pretty good radar, and tend to constantly analyze the environment surrounding me. As others have said, I would find a reason to put enough distance and/or a object between me and the would be attackers. I always carry the glock with a round in the pipe and when my radar goes off I will have my hand very close, or on it.

If in fact the BG did select me as a target and get the jump on me, how I would react would depend on a bunch of specifics that I would have to process quickly.

First off, do they know what they are doing? Are they standing a distace away from me with the guns drawn, fingers on the trigger trained on my chest, or are they up close to me waving their guns around with their trigger finger around the grip planning on fear to obtain their goal?

If it was the former, a person is a lot better off handing their wallet over. Even assuming the element of surprise, it is going to be hard to draw and shoot before they tense their finger. You may do it, but I would consider it a very low success plan. If the sitation is the latter, then a person may be able to take them out, but would have to decide if it was worth the risk. If I did choose that it was smarter to hand my wallet over given the situation, make no mistake I would be ready to react if the situation was going south.

Another thing I would ad is that I don't go anywhere without my knife in a very easy to get to location. If the attackers were up close, which I would suspect they would be in a public area as to not draw attention, a knife is a very valuable close quarters tool.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter. I have only been faced with a armed attacker one time, year ago and it was a knife. I did react and disarmed and injured him without getting cut or stabbed. It could have easily ended differently. Now that I am older and have a family, I may handle the same situation differently. You just don't know until the situation arises how you will actually react.

Do not allow them to close the "gap". Draw first. I have, several times, and it saved the day. Never allow scum to get close enough to actually hit you. Some will rail at you, some will run, but they will almost always back off or cease attack patterns. Been there, done that

 

[THC101]

I don't typically carry unless I am in a questionable location, so any advice would be great!

My question is, what isn't a questionable area?

exactly..

as soooon as i get my concealed permit ill be packing everyday.
you cant really guess what may happen during your days.

 

[2zuks]

Do not allow them to close the "gap". Draw first. I have, several times, and it saved the day. Never allow scum to get close enough to actually hit you. Some will rail at you, some will run, but they will almost always back off or cease attack patterns. Been there, done that

For sure. I would never let someone get close like that on purpose. What I was trying to say is IF somehow I was caught off-guard completely and they were all of the sudden there. Like I said earlier in the post I am very alert and very proactive.

 

[Redrum]

I will share this story in hopes that it helps someone else. Remember, you can't choose the place..it chooses you..you can do absolutely everything correct and still die...ALWAYS listen to the small voice inside your head that tells you somethings not right.. I dont care what you call it..it will save your life.

I was working for a small city police agency in eastern Oregon at the time...I was the only one on duty. It was a nice, quiet, sunny, summer, sunday afternoon.

I got a call to the local Catholic church on a report of a truck doing cookies on the soccer field behind the church...I got there and sure enough the field was tore up but the truck was gone. I needed to find the priest to see if he wanted me to make a report. So I went into the church and stood at the chapel doors.

There was a baby christening going on and it had just finished. All the people were in the front of the chapel, between the pews and the podium. They were gathered around the baby and family. I saw the priest in the back corner putting things away and tried to catch his eye (I was trying keep it low key) but he was too busy to look up and I couldnt get his attention.

I decided I would walk around the side of the chapel and up to the priest..staying as far away from the christening as I could so as not to disturb them any more than I already had. (cop in uniform people tend to look) As I started to move, I heard a small voice inside my head say: "Dont go near the crowd". I didn't move and began to have a conversation in my head with myself as too what I just heard. I looked at the crowd and saw nothing to warrant my concern or out of place that I could identify...I then heard the voice again only stronger this time: "DON'T GO NEAR THE CROWD". One thing I've learned in my life is to listen that voice when I hear it even if it doesnt make any sense at the time..so I turned around and went back to my patrol car.

I had a discription of the truck and a good idea where it might be. I figured I'd go look for it and then come back and talk to the priest later. As I was driving around looking for the truck, my dispatcher called me on the radio and asked me to come back to the station for a phone call.

When I got back to the station, on the phone was a police officer from a neighboring city. He asked me if I was just at the Catholic church? I said I was. He told me his wife was there at the christening and was among the crowd with the baby when I walked in and stood at the chapel doors.

She told him there was a man who she did not know off to her left. She was in a spot where it so happend she could see us both at the same time. The man when he saw me walk in, pulled a handgun from his waistband and held it down at his side as he stared at me, watching my every move. Once I left he handed the pistol to his girlfriend, she put it in her purse and they quickly left the church. She followed them outside and got a license plate. The car was never located.

I related to him about the voice I heard in my head and we both wondered outloud about what could have happend had I not listened to it. I have no doubt I would have been in a shootout, in the middle of a babies christening, inside a church, on a Sunday and I would have been seriouslly behind the curve when it all started.

There aren't to many safer places than at a babies christening, in church on a sunday.

stay safe

 

[phathom]

Definitely listen to that voice in your head. You have senses that you don't always use or pay attention to, so when you hear them, it's when they're yelling at you and you better listen.
I have a similar story from back in my school days where that little voice saved me from getting seriously injured.

I was outside and a guy who had been giving me problems that year was behind me, giving me a lot of verbal abuse. I decided to ignore it and not pay him any attention. I heard how his voice changed, then he wen silent. I got this weird sense that he was going to take it above something verbal, got the tingle in the back of my neck and the voice in my head just yelling "GO!" I didn't hesitate and spun around really quickly, to see that he was swinging to punch me in the back of the head. Luckily for me I had listened to that voice and spun around, when I saw him cocked back in the corner of my eye while spinning towards him I was able to use my momentum and get a square on punch of mine, dead center into his face before he hit me. This caught him off guard, he started bleeding and left, leaving me unharmed. He was much bigger than me, older than me, and stronger than me, but me having listened to that little voice saved me from getting pummeled.

Not as serious as some cases can be, but just another example on how that voice can save your skin.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Agreed, that voice has saved me many times. For me I know it is the holy spirit. Allow me to share one such incident

Sacramento, California, my wife and I rented a duplex on a relatively quiet street but the area was going downhill. Hot summer days made the place an oven, and electricity for the air conditioner wasn't cheap, and I hate air conditioning anyway.. so at night for several hours after bedtime I would snooze on the couch near the front door while the windows were still open, door was open but screen door was closed and fans were ventilating the house. Our faithful protection trained Rottweiler, Boris (125 lbs of bad boy) laid at my feet snoozing, and I had my M19- 6 inch .357 under my pillow

The voice spoke to me as I snoozed: You are in danger, wake up!

I awoke with the magnum cocked, pointed at the torso of a punk teenager who was reaching for the screen door. He could not see inside but he heard that magnum cock I had drawn, literally in my sleep. He stopped, shocked, and then 1 split second later Boris woke up and with a roar launched at the screen door, heavily denting it.. the punk ran so fast he left traction marks

If there had been any sounds to wake me up, Boris would have heard them first and reacted. It was the voice that warned me

 

[SVT-ROY]

Its just a wallet. Not worth it. But luckily for me it is highly unlikely i would be considerd a target. I'm a large Guy with big red beard and tattoos, so they are the ones crossing the street. Off to find another mark, problem solved. Its funny when ever I encounter a road rager they pull up with window down about to get tough then I roll down my tinted windows and their anger turns to fear LOL. Its funny. They don't expect a man looking like I do to be driving what I drive.

And for the gun dreams its either my guns jam, no ammo/wrong or junky ammo. Or I don't have my guns and only have junk. If the gun does fire but no damage. Always!

 

[mhadix]

At 10' I would release all 3 of my German Shepherds with an attack command. Their focus is no longer on me and I have plenty of time to draw and fire. situation eliminated.

 

[RVTECH]

BEND, Ore. -- A southeast Bend couple said they answered their doorbell late Tuesday night and opened the door, only to find a man had grabbed a pipe, entered their home and demanded cash, police said, issuing a description of the suspect and the car he fled in.

Police responded around 11:30 p.m. to the reported home invasion burglary and attempted robbery in the 600 block of Southeast Glencoe Place, said Sgt. Dan Ritchie.

Officers quickly learned the suspect had fled in a light-colored, mid-sized SUV, possibly a Hyundai. No one was injured in the incident, Ritchie said.

The suspect was described as a white male in his mid 30s to early 40s, with an “orange-colored cast with black writing on his right arm,” Ritchie said in a news release.

He also was described as having a scruffy face with goatee, short brown hair to his ears, and last was seen wearing a dark baseball cap.

The two victims, a 30-year-old man and 25-year-old woman, said they did not know the man who rang their doorbell.

“(The) residents saw nothing unusual about the suspect through a window and opened the door,” Ritchie said.

“The suspect then reached near the door and grabbed a pipe and entered the residence, threatening them while demanding cash,” the sergeant said.

“The victims backed into the residence and the suspect fled to the nearby ... parked vehicle,” Ritchie added.

Anyone with information that could help in the investigation was asked to contact Bend police through Deschutes County 911 dispatchers, whose non-emergency number is (541) 693-6911.

 

[phathom]

^ one reason I always carry, even while at home. I never answer the door without it on me and my hand on it. I actually scared the crap out of a couple of my friends who came by unexpected to surprise me and covered the peep hole. They were surprised when I answered the door, gun drawn. They never did that again

 

[Decker]

^ one reason I always carry, even while at home. I never answer the door without it on me and my hand on it.

Ditto. I also put my foot down about 5 inches behind the door so that I can open it but if someone tries to force it open it will be harder for them to accomplish.

-d

 

[The B]

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