"Honest Gun": what does that mean to you?

[Spitpatch]

In the realm of used/antique firearm sales, one often hears, "That's an honest gun." or "This is an honest gun." Usually attributed to an item that shows some wear as would be expected. If you were to represent a gun for sale as "an honest gun", what criteria would prompt you to include that phrase in your attempt to sell?
On the other hand, if you are a potential buyer, what would you expect to see in a gun that was represented as an "honest gun". What would disqualify it and cause you to get your radar up when considering the purchase?

Since the term is somewhat subjective (and not itemized in collector's literature, aka: Blue Book, Standard Catalog) some variability in its definition is probable.
Here's my criteria:

1) All original with no modifications (exception here for accessories/modifications that would be correct for the time, and common on that particular gun: Marble's or Lyman sight on a Winchester for example). This is where the "honest gun" departs from the gun represented as "all original".

2) Exhibits ordinary wear for the gun's application and age. (This can be a LOT of wear and still be an "honest gun"). A target rifle might show much less age than a deer rifle of the same vintage (both "honest guns").

3) No evidence of refinishing or restoration. Repairs done properly and in no effort to hide a flaw are acceptable. Even a "field repair" not professionally done can "add" to the "honesty", I believe. (An old Indian gun with cracked wood repaired with sinew wrap of the time and at the time is an example.)

4) The gun is complete. no parts missing or replaced.

My criteria only. Perhaps I have overlooked something you consider important when seeing the frequent (sometimes too frequent in my opinion) phrase, "honest gun".
LIkewise, perhaps you consider one or more of my qualifications too strict or in need of including an exception.

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[Nosferatu]

In my 20+ years of buying gun nonsense on the interwebs, I've never seen that phrase before now.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Cant say Ive seen that phrase before.
Where I could see it being used would be for the functionality. As in, the exterior wear may have been rough but the internals all worked 100%.

Beyond that Im not sure how Id use that phrase.

 

[Soli]

Thoughtful post. Don't collect firearms (and not familiar with the phrase), but do collect some other old stuff. I try to go by the maxim "buy the piece, not the story", and that phrase sounds like story.

That said, I'd argue #3 is out of place. Kind of implied in the description; when does touching up/fixing the piece (ie, refinishing/refurbishing part of it) move from contientious maintenance over the decades to "real" refinishing? Either/both are "honest" IMO. It's what really happened (no effort to deceive) over the life of the piece. (Without changing it from being original.)

A story. Toured the HMS Victory years ago. Talking with the guide he pointed that the timber was only 20% original. (They catalog and track every board/component of the ship!) Over the decades 80% of it had been replaced; battle damage and wood deteriorates. We laughed. Were we really standing on the HMS Victory?

As you know, at the end of the day your expertise is your only protection in the minefield that is collecting. Anything.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The phrase is only not disingenuous if a used car salesman says it.

 

[JuglansRegia]

I have seen the phrase "honest wear" meaning there is some blueing loss or thinnning in the normal places from typical use.

 

[Spitpatch]

In my 20+ years of buying gun nonsense on the interwebs, I've never seen that phrase before now.

You will. (Perhaps you actually have and now will notice it!: No charge for this service.)

 

[jbett98]

I look for an honest seller and let the firearm speak for itself.

 

[Spitpatch]

The phrase is only not disingenuous if a used car salesman says it.

I actually bought a car from a salesman whose busn card noted he was "Honest John". Turned out to be a great car.

But you touched on the heart of the matter. I'm not really sure I'd include the "honest gun" phrase in any gun I offered for sale. Because it IS so subjective.

I HAVE had a gun I offered for sale referred to by a potential buyer as an "honest gun". A model 71 Winchester I toted to more than one gun show some time back. I was forced to shoot my horse with it and could not stand to have it around any longer. I knew the interested "clientele" for such a rifle was relatively limited. I also had it priced for what I knew it would bring when the clientele saw it.

Multiple dealers did the "low-ball shuffle", some and more made fun of me since they'd seen me packing it at previous shows (right up until I pointed out 5 or 10 guns on their table that I knew they'd packed longer).

One dealer wanted the gun (he knew at my price he could turn it pretty quickly). The second time he asked to examine it, he did so thoroughly. I learned a couple things from him as he did. We were a bit apart on price, and he handed it back saying, "That is an honest gun."

As I walked away, an older gentleman tapped me on the shoulder and asked to see it. He paid me asking price saying he'd been looking for a good one for 15 years, and the dealer pronouncing it "An honest gun" clinched it (the old guy was eavesdropping: learning as much as I did).

 

[Legs]

When it comes to sales of any used item phrases like honest, vintage, rare (among many terms) are all in the mind of the seller and should be avoided. Terms such as minimal wear, antique, collectible and such are more descriptive and accurate. Vintage.. really..! What is being sold..? Wine..?
Just my $.02

 

[Mikej]

A gun that wouldn't access my wallet while I sleep, nor drink my gin without me, and, definitely not mess around with my wife!

 

[cigars]

I guess in the barest sense of the meaning, as long as it's not a water pistol identifying as a gun then it would indeed be an honest gun.

 

[tccustom]

"Honest gun", "the real deal", etc. These phrases put the sellers integrity on the line in my opinion. I'll use a WWII 1911 for example. When someone finds an original pistol in grandpa's closet still in the original holster with GI mags. Markings and patina are correct, I would see that as an honest gun. Same gun in a dealers glass case and the barrel patina doesn't match the rest of the pistol. Red flag! No matter what is said about a firearm and its condition, your better off doing some research and you'll be able to spot the "honest gun". Look at all the examples of the same model you can. You'll see that only a few are truly "honest". Good luck, be educated, and always "Buyer Beware"

 

[Knobgoblin]

The phrase is only not disingenuous if a used car salesman says it.

You mean previously owned vehicles?

 

[thorborg]

In my 20+ years of buying gun nonsense on the interwebs, I've never seen that phrase before now.

Me neither, till I read it in a recent gun magazine. Is someone living vicariously?

 

[Knobgoblin]

In my 20+ years of buying gun nonsense on the interwebs, I've never seen that phrase before now.

Both a regional and generational colloquialism

 

[RVTECH]

"Honest gun", "the real deal", etc. These phrases put the sellers integrity on the line in my opinion.

I assume then this applies to anyone at the 'Gun Room' from what I have heard and read?

 

[Spitpatch]

...and, if something on the gun screams subterfuge/alteration, it not only taints inclinations toward that purchase, but any others that seller may offer.

 

[CountryGent]

In all these decades, I don't know that I've seen or heard "honest gun". I have seen and heard "honest wear" many times though. I take that to mean bluing (or other finish) warn from use not abuse, some minor dings and imperfections in the wood, small parts possibly replaced but otherwise completely mechanically sound and safe to fire. In most cases it was accurate. I can think of one or two in which it wasn't. Caveat emptor.

 

[Mark W.]

I actually bought a car from a salesman whose busn card noted he was "Honest John". Turned out to be a great car.

But you touched on the heart of the matter. I'm not really sure I'd include the "honest gun" phrase in any gun I offered for sale. Because it IS so subjective.

I HAVE had a gun I offered for sale referred to by a potential buyer as an "honest gun". A model 71 Winchester I toted to more than one gun show some time back. I was forced to shoot my horse with it and could not stand to have it around any longer. I knew the interested "clientele" for such a rifle was relatively limited. I also had it priced for what I knew it would bring when the clientele saw it.

Multiple dealers did the "low-ball shuffle", some and more made fun of me since they'd seen me packing it at previous shows (right up until I pointed out 5 or 10 guns on their table that I knew they'd packed longer).

One dealer wanted the gun (he knew at my price he could turn it pretty quickly). The second time he asked to examine it, he did so thoroughly. I learned a couple things from him as he did. We were a bit apart on price, and he handed it back saying, "That is an honest gun."

As I walked away, an older gentleman tapped me on the shoulder and asked to see it. He paid me asking price saying he'd been looking for a good one for 15 years, and the dealer pronouncing it "An honest gun" clinched it (the old guy was eavesdropping: learning as much as I did).

We bought a car from a guy who I didn't think could get much more slimy. Big Gold chain around his neck Big gold watch Gold pinkie ring, IZOD Polo shirt. etc. Pissed me off as he changed the deal right in the middle of the paper work, but it was my wifes money and she just wanted the car so poo pooed me when I started to say something.

Funny thing is the Car a 2003 Ford Focus has been an excellent little car. two bad rear wheel bearings (the second one Les Schwab had to eat as it was under warranty) a PCV hose that took all weekend for me to fix (its under the manifolds) a couple of tail lights and a head light and she's put well over 120K on the clock.