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Gun Law Failure?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by ZigZagZeke, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke Eugene Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    The shooting in AZ is not a product of lax or failed gun laws. It is a product of a non-existant mental health system. The shooter had contact with campus police at his school 5 times in October for bizarre and disruptive behavior. His internet postings inidcate that he suffers from paranoid delusions and is probably schizophrenic. On November 30 he was able to purchase a Glock semi-automatic pistol and passed the federally required background check. He was able to pass the background check because there was no record of treatment for a severe mental health issue.

    Prior to the mental health systems in most states being abolished by Conservative state level politicians during the 1980’s to save money and balance budgets, this young man would have been routinely committed on an involuntary mental hold for evaluation. Whether he had been released after that observation period or not, his name would have been in the system and that would have prevented him from buying a firearm.

    This is the hidden cost of balancing budgets and creating tax cuts by eliminating necessary programs. The people who champion the elimination of these necessary programs know full well that there will be costs down the road, but that it will be a long time before those costs come home to roost. We are seeing it happen now. This is just one story out of many recent national and local tragedies. Almost daily we hear of confused, intoxicated, suicidal, and irrational people being shot to death by the police on the streets. These incidents are handled with the only tools the system has, the police. The police are not trained to intervene in mental health cases. They are trained to handle criminals. So they shoot the ones who threaten them and eventually release the ones who don’t. Treatment is seldom an option.
     
  2. MA Duce

    MA Duce Central Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The shooting in AZ is not a product of lax or failed gun laws. It is a product of a non-existant mental health system. And you could have added lack of action by instructors at the Community College he attended and by his family members. Time and time again when these incidents occur hindsight reveals a string of clues that, had action been taken, might have averted tragedy.
     
  3. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke Eugene Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    Agreed 100% Duce, but I know from personal experience that when the family or the school tries to find help the options are very limited. 30 years ago this guy would have been hauled to the state mental hospital by the campus police for an involuntary evaluation lasting about 6 to 8 weeks. He'd probably still be there.
     
  4. MrB+

    MrB+ Portland area Member

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    Do you *really* think that would have prevented him from buying a firearm?

    MrB+
     
  5. Gunwheeler

    Gunwheeler Somewhere in De Nile Active Member

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    I also understand the shooter could not get into the military because of a failed drug test.
     
  6. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Had a really good reply but after reading the rules some liberal would get teed off so why even try to talk sense on the subject?:bluelaugh::bluelaugh: However ask yourself if we need another frigging socialist program to heard the nuts around LOL

    jj
     
  7. MA Duce

    MA Duce Central Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Yes in all probability you are correct......but it doesn't absolve anyone from their duty to do what they can. The system won't work unless all the elements work. Unless a report is made, nothing can happen.
     
  8. Quackerbacker

    Quackerbacker Springfield, OR Active Member

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    You are right.

    Politicians really don't seem to care very much about these types of people.

    Every knee jerk reaction to something like what happened in Arizona results in one more list of firearms and components that in effect afford the criminal element security in knowing the general peace loving populace cannot use to defend themselves with.

    If this had been a Tea Party rally how many fewer people would have been injured before he was dropped by members of the crowd?
     
  9. zeezee

    zeezee nowheresville Member

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    It was Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and all those other right wing conservative nut jobs who say things like "I hate violence. I hate war" but she's just saying that because she's a politician, right? PUKE!!!!!! The democratic party will do anything and everything to stay in power, but the harder they try the deeper they dig their own grave. That includes the main stream media, cbs, cnn, and other socialist pseudo-news services.
     
  10. Quackerbacker

    Quackerbacker Springfield, OR Active Member

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    Clearly, what this situation calls for, is more victim disarmament.
     
  11. Lars

    Lars Clackamas Active Member

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    Unfortunately this will no doubt lead to restrictions on the 1st and 2nd Amendment rights in the country.
     
  12. Swedish K

    Swedish K SW Washington Moderator Staff Member

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    The prison systems in this country are full of the nut jobs due to the shortfalls of mental health programs. In CA if you have an inmate with severe mental health issues the standard procedure is to refer/transfer them to the Department of Mental health - where most often they are declared not amenable to treatment and are returned to the prisons within a few weeks. After doing nothing for the subject they charge the Department of Corrections an insane fee for their "treatment".

    One issue you run into is that the shrinks can't discuss patient's information due to doctor / patient privacy rules unless they are deemed to be an immediate threat to themselves or others. A plus for those seeking help as most wouldn't go if the privacy rules weren't in place. The down side is that most shrinks won't report them as they will loose the trust of the patient and fear loss of their license for breaching confidentiality if they were to report the person and they went on to sue them for doing so after finding another doc to say that the original opinion was unfounded. Throw in the idea that few docs want to admit that they can't help someone and you have a loose loose situation.

    Now we have to deal with the moron politicians that will push for further restrictions of the honest citizens 2nd Amendment rights when it has been proven time and time again that the knee jerk "feel good" legislation only tramples on the rights of the good and increases criminal activity.
     
  13. lesscubes

    lesscubes Burien Member

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    I couldn't agree more. A burden falls on the family and friends of someone who's suffering from mental illness to at the least prod them, push them to get help. Something very wrong here happened to this guy before he went berserk and murdered so many people.
     
  14. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    You can't legislate away killing sprees by mentally deranged people, either by gun laws or a more expansive mental health system. Someone is always going to fall through the cracks. It just takes 1 out of 300 million to ruin everyone's day. The best you can do is be prepared for it if it happens to you.

    The attitude which a lot of people have that "a law should have caught this" is bad, because it leads into the idea that the government should be in charge of doing everything. Look at the emails released by the college professor that got him kicked out of school. It was all about making him someone else's problem instead of actually trying to get him help. If people didn't have this idea that the government is around protecting us from everything, maybe they would be more proactive in getting people they know are disturbed some assistance, because they know there is no other barrier stopping them from going nuts.
     
  15. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Yeah this is going to turn into a circus of gun control laws. They don't seem to care thousands of people die every year to drug, gang, and war violence but when their precious rich way of life is threatened then the world must change.

    My question is why wasn't there security or law enforcement there to protect her? There seems to be a severe security failure not a gun control failure.

    Gun control won't deter crazy people from carrying out crazy acts.

    How many gun owners didn't kill somebody on Sunday?

    Here's an article proposed by KY lawmakers.
    http://www.kentucky.com/2011/01/10/1594163/lawmakers-push-to-exempt-kentucky.html#
     
  16. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Ok, what is the "cause" that has set off violence so many times in the past? Was this another prozac moment? Tell me, where do the most lies and violence come from? What group has killed more than any other group in modern history? If you think you are going to solve violence with another social program, well think again.

    jj
     
  17. narcosis

    narcosis lake stevens New Member

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    more gun control laws will never make up for lack of punishment for criminals. criminals have nothing to fear anymore, we live by example we see mass murderers in prison 25-life we take care of their medical problems we take care of their mental problems we take care of our criminals better than we take care of our law abiding people. there is nothing to stop and make people think if i do this ill be in big trouble. drunk drivers kill more and more people every year but we don't have background checks for them to buy more beer and do it again. you can stack the laws till every ones freedoms are gone but that will never make us any safer.
     
  18. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    more restrictions, especially on MSNBC and other left wing "news" outlets and reporters!!

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  19. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    That was the first reports, now they say it was due to his answering that he had used pot "hundreds of times" during interviews during the selection process.

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  20. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I once had a girl friend that was Bi-Polar, when we broke up her shrink called me to tell me she was out to kill me and I needed to go pick up her pistol from where she had rented a room. I did so before she got out out of the mental hosp. She was a good enough shot that the RO at the pit wanted her to go pro. I then got my concealed carry license and have been carrying ever since!!

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    Deen
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