Gas piston ar15 worth the extra money?

[SRB]

Not for the majority of folks unless you just want one and don't mind spending the cash. They're very nice and catching on but, the standard gas impingement systems have a solid history...

 

[iGun]

I should just buy both the piston and the di system and run a test and go to the range run a bunch rounds through each one until a failure happens....

If you buy quality, you might end up spending more on the ammo for that test than you spent on either rifle...

 

[Hamtaro1085]

If you buy quality, you might end up spending more on the ammo for that test than you spent on either rifle...

I was just about to post "who wants to donate the ammo?? "

 

[PolishedBrass]

Piston AR's are better and more reliable but there isn't any set standard that all manufacturers are adhering to.
Piston driven .223's that are basically "AR Like" and use AR magazines are an old invention.

The Korean/Colt made AR100 and the Daewoo DR200 have been around for over 25 years.

They do absolutely prove that an AK style piston on an AR makes for better reliability however; being one of the more reliable and accurate .223's on the market.
(Or banned from the market)

 

[iGun]

PB--as you are aware this is an debate that can go on forever. Let me speak from my personal experience. I have an LWRC M6A3 piston AR. It's been a great gun--perfectly reliable under fairly heavy use, and has an added advantage of not requiring much lube. I also have a 14.5" BCM with a DD RIS II rail that I like even better and shoot much more. Why?

1. Weight and balance
BCM: 6.25 lbs w/no optic, 7.5 lbs with optic. Well balanced.
LWRC: 8 lbs with no optics, 9.25 with optic. Front heavy.

2. Sharper recoil impulse with the piston gun.

3. Low profile gas block on the DI, allowing a rifle length rail. I like my RIS II because the length offers so many options for grip position and accessory mounting.

Reliability has been equal, although I do make sure to keep my DI gun lubed. The new Frog Lube paste makes this really easy.

When I get my suppressor paperwork complete, I'll probably use the LWRC with the can more often, but until then... I prefer my DI gun for pretty much everything.

Piston AR's are better and more reliable but there isn't any set standard that all manufacturers are adhering to.
Piston driven .223's that are basically "AR Like" and use AR magazines are an old invention.

The Korean/Colt made AR100 and the Daewoo DR200 have been around for over 25 years.

They do absolutely prove that an AK style piston on an AR makes for better reliability however; being one of the more reliable and accurate .223's on the market.
(Or banned from the market)

 

[PolishedBrass]

PB--as you are aware this is an debate that can go on forever. Let me speak from my personal experience. I have an LWRC M6A3 piston AR. It's been a great gun--perfectly reliable under fairly heavy use, and has an added advantage of not requiring much lube. I also have a 14.5" BCM with a DD RIS II rail that I like even better and shoot much more. Why?

1. Weight and balance
BCM: 6.25 lbs w/no optic, 7.5 lbs with optic. Well balanced.
LWRC: 8 lbs with no optics, 9.25 with optic. Front heavy.

2. Sharper recoil impulse with the piston gun.

3. Low profile gas block on the DI, allowing a rifle length rail. I like my RIS II because the length offers so many options for grip position and accessory mounting.

Reliability has been equal, although I do make sure to keep my DI gun lubed. The new Frog Lube paste makes this really easy.

When I get my suppressor paperwork complete, I'll probably use the LWRC with the can more often, but until then... I prefer my DI gun for pretty much everything.

Indubitably; However why try to assess current trend piston AR variants with the standard Gas system when a 25+ year "Weapon History" for piston AR variants has already been established by Colt via Daewoo of Korea?
I guess that was my point over preference or debate regarding trend or current designs.

Then the issue of reliability can be left to evidence of weapon history and evolution and the choice then becomes one of preference or design. (As you properly affirm)

The current piston trend and evolution of AR's traces itself back to Colt/Daewoo which traces back to the AK Piston System.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Finally finished her AR15 carbine recently.. after waiting 16 + months for Yankee Hill to make a new diamond flute 1-9 barrel run. It's a gas system (posted DI but it was a brain fart) and I can report it ran great for the few mags we fired out in the woods.. it's only laser bore sighted with BUIS and the mini Eotech holo so far, must get to the range



With an Aussie style padded cover I made for it.. rolls up and fits in a BDU pocket and covers the port well, too. I also made a matching muzzle cover



With a Blackhawk cover



She needs a light weapon because she is not a big or strong girl.. me? I prefer HK roller locked rifles and am stocking up parts to build a HK 93 clone, myself.. now you want to talk reliable, there we are.. you get hooked on the roller locks and it becomes a serious addiction

 

[The B]

Piston AR's are better and more reliable but there isn't any set standard that all manufacturers are adhering to...

...They do absolutely prove that an AK style piston on an AR makes for better reliability however; being one of the more reliable and accurate .223's on the market.

These are ridiculous statements. You have any evidence to back up "better," "more reliable," and "absolutely prove?" You might think you're talking to a bunch of know-nothing gun-show enthusiasts here, buddy, but there are some guys here who actually know this platform, and pretty damn well.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Had a brain fart but fixed it.. my gal's carbine is a gas system

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

They do absolutely prove that an AK style piston on an AR makes for better reliability however; being one of the more reliable and accurate .223's on the market.
(Or banned from the market)

The AK and most other piston guns are long stroke piston guns, designed from the ground up to use that type of action. The piston ARs are short stroke piston guns, imparting quick, violent shoves to the bolt. Not the same thing. Here's an animation from larue's site:

I like this conclusion by EriccCartman on the XCR forum:

So what's the final verdict on GP AR's? They do run cooler and cleaner, but the action on them seems to be very rough as evident by all the dents and shaved metal everywhere. LWRC has worked out most of the bugs, and I am sure they will work out all of them to make a better rifle. However, that does not take away from the fact that the makers of GP-AR's took a simple working DI-AR and made it more complicated. Stoner is no dummy, if he felt the AR needed a GP he would have put one in. If you really wanted a cleaner and cooler weapon I would just buy one that was designed from the ground up to run a piston, such as an XCR or SCAR, or even older designs such as an AK or FAL.

 

[eldbillbo]

I find this to be the most interesting piston Ar as it was designed just about from the ground up and addresses the flaws in the piston AR design.

Most if not all of the other piston systems are pretty much a knock off of the KKF design too bad Kurt did not live long enough to see what he started.

Its interesting the first piston ar15 was made by colt the Colt 703 in the 60s
then later in the i think the early 80s the Rhino piston system came out now that was back before the interweb and it faded away .

What a lot of guys don't know is that a 1 man custom Ar15 Armorer Kurt at KKF resurrected the idea but did not have the machinery to do it and everything up to the Adcor bear has been a knock off of that design.

Now the adcor took some real engineering rather than just fitting a piston to a ar15 they also fit a ar15 to a piston

 

[PolishedBrass]

These are ridiculous statements. You have any evidence to back up "better," "more reliable," and "absolutely prove?" You might think you're talking to a bunch of know-nothing gun-show enthusiasts here, buddy, but there are some guys here who actually know this platform, and pretty damn well.

Settle down.
I think I see where the problem is with what I said earlier ... My reference and intent was pointing to the AR100 design ... not all GP AR's. Sorry.
Sure ... I overstated ... sure ... I generalized with absolutes and did not go into great detail ... sorry about that ... it seemed to upset you quite a bit.
I love the AR platform ... It is clear that efforts are being made trying to make improvements. Yes ... ground up is a smart way to go ...

Efforts are there because innovation marches onward. That march looks towards a piston design.
My main point is that it has been around a long time and been proven to work well. (By Colt and Daewoo)

Newer designs of piston AR's ... that I am not as sure of due to the harsher short stroke.

BTW a brief bit of research will dig up higher reliability with the AR100/DR200 ... but like most weapons ... there is good and bad and preference.
Keep it civil ... I will try and not step on anybody's platform.

 

[PolishedBrass]

The thing that I am waiting for is a mil-spec gas piston.
Every AR gas piston is proprietary in design. If some part on it needs replacement, you have to go back to the factory - which may not be there.
Mil-spec would mean I could buy parts anywhere.
Until then I'll just party with the direct impingement. I just wish I could dance as good as the partyman!

Yeah ... I couldn't agree more.

 

[eldbillbo]

Dude Partyman rocks

I own a obsolete PWS first Gen . Tried to get spare parts from them and they said they don't make them any more. good thing it works good. but if something breaks and i am up poo poo creek with out a rifle at least it would make a good paddle

I am not complaining at all it just good information that people should consider if choosing one.

 

[PolishedBrass]

I find this to be the most interesting piston Ar as it was designed just about from the ground up and addresses the flaws in the piston AR design.

All other piston systems are pretty much a knock off of the KKF design too bad Kurt did not live long enough to see what he started.

Its interesting the first piston ar15 was made by colt the Colt 703 in the 60s
then later in the i think the early 80s the Rhino piston system came out now that was back before the interweb and it faded away .

What a lot of guys don't know is that a 1 man custom Ar15 Armorer Kurt at KKF resurrected the idea but did not have the machinery to do it and everything up to the Adcor bear has been a knock off of that design.

now the adcor took some real engineering rather than just fitting a piston to a ar15 they also fit a ar15 to a piston

Wow ... Looks nice but super complicated compared to the AR100 design.

I think I see where the problem is with what I said earlier ... My reference and intent was pointing to the AR100 design ... not all GP AR's.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Hahaha nothing wrong with trying but IMO as of yet piston systems for the AR15 are not in the "trust your life with yet" category

In the meantime I will bet on the HK roller locked guns, nothing is as generally versatile or reliable at this time. Ask the Navy Seals and hundreds or police agencies and SFs around the world. Unfortunately they are banned from import thanks to Bush the Elder but there has developed a serious home built industry with a few well proven smiths who can build you one

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

i have both di and gas piston ar15's...i love them both,both are very accurate sub moa at 100 yrds.
the di is lighter which is good for all day carrying but feels like a toy kind of,still a great gun.
the di gun takes forever to cool off when im done shooting though and although it has never jammed the bolt gets dirty.

my gas piston gun is heavy but i like a heavier gun,it makes me more accurate i feel the same with handguns.
the piston gun is sweet,looks cool and is solid,no toy feel to this gun.
the bolt stays cool and clean,you can run thousands of rounds through it without a clean or oil,no hard recoil as someone stated.

in short if i had to go to war i would take the more solid piston gun since it will not foul or heat up the bolt.
it's allways reliable and sub moa past 200 yards when my di gun starts to group more poorly.

as for parts,they are simple...anyone with a mill and lathe could whip up some new pistons and rods in 20 minutes but how could you damage the piston or rod in this gun?they are rock solid.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

but how could you damage the piston or rod in this gun?they are rock solid.

Dunno about the gas piston AR's op rod but ask garand/m14 owners about shooting hot ammo or heavy bullets and bent op rods (and heavy 5.56 bullets are all the rage now).
It seems the biggest threat to the piston ARs I've heard about is bolt carrier tilt and it's associated scraping.

If the AR100/DR200 was a superior design, why wasn't it adopted by the US, especially with all the problems they had with the first batches of M16s they shipped to Vietnam with the "self cleaning rifle" (pfffft!). Did those other designs come along later? Not being argumentative, just wondering if it was better in the important categories why it wasn't adopted.

 

[Hardwood floor guy]

Dunno about the gas piston AR's op rod but ask garand/m14 owners about shooting hot ammo or heavy bullets and bent op rods (and heavy 5.56 bullets are all the rage now).
It seems the biggest threat to the piston ARs I've heard about is bolt carrier tilt and it's associated scraping.

If the AR100/DR200 was a superior design, why wasn't it adopted by the US, especially with all the problems they had with the first batches of M16s they shipped to Vietnam with the "self cleaning rifle" (pfffft!). Did those other designs come along later? Not being argumentative, just wondering if it was better in the important categories why it wasn't adopted.

not at all,you bring up a good point....the 7.62 piston guns could give the op rod too much abuse,i can see that happening.
mine is 5.56 so i really dont see any sign of op rod damage or bolt wear but in 308 i have heard of carrier tilt and some feeding issues.
pof makes a roller cam to stop bolt tilt,even available for di guns and looks to be pretty good design.

 

[PolishedBrass]

Dunno about the gas piston AR's op rod but ask garand/m14 owners about shooting hot ammo or heavy bullets and bent op rods (and heavy 5.56 bullets are all the rage now).
It seems the biggest threat to the piston ARs I've heard about is bolt carrier tilt and it's associated scraping.

If the AR100/DR200 was a superior design, why wasn't it adopted by the US, especially with all the problems they had with the first batches of M16s they shipped to Vietnam with the "self cleaning rifle" (pfffft!). Did those other designs come along later? Not being argumentative, just wondering if it was better in the important categories why it wasn't adopted.

Don't know. It is used by the Korean Military. They also copied multiple designs ... their Piston stroke is long, their gas is adjustable like the FAL ... probably because they had to to make it work right.
I just recently field stripped mine and ... I gota say ... having field stripped hundreds and hundreds of firearms ... I was impressed.

I also have to admit ... my frame of reference is skewed ... I have had over a dozen great Custom DI AR's ... half dozen FALs ... several AK's and my favorite almost a Dozen M1a's
The engineering on the Daewoo is brute beautiful like an AR and AK and a FAL mated together with a Garand and an H&K.