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you previously said that the ATF does not make any ruling with out Congressional approval???????????????????????????????????????????????
That's not what I said. They don't make law. Congress does that. The ATF makes rules, like all other govt agencies do, based on those laws which is within their mandate. If the rules they make do not pass legal muster they get thrown out by the courts.
You claim they just do what they want. Not true.
 
That's not what I said. They don't make law. Congress does that. The ATF makes rules, like all other govt agencies do, based on those laws which is within their mandate. If the rules they make do not pass legal muster they get thrown out by the courts.
You claim they just do what they want. Not true.
and those rules are enforced as laws and people go to jail over an ATF ruling which is not a law
 
where was Congress when they banned the Akins Accelerator? which is simple a very well engineered bump stock back in the 90s. No where because the ATF made their own rulling on the stock that had zero to do with the deffinition of a MG.
Akins submitted a manually powered version of the stock to the ATF who evaluated it and ruled it to not be a machine gun. Akins then turned around and sold a spring loaded/powered version that met the definition of a machine gun. The ATF issued a cease and desist letter for the device they did not approve. Akins challenged the decision and lost in court because the court found the device to work as a machine gun as defined by law . Akins accelerator owners were required to send the springs into the ATF. Akins went out of business.

Next example....
 
Akins submitted a manually powered version of the stock to the ATF who evaluated it and ruled it to not be a machine gun. Akins then turned around and sold a spring loaded/powered version that met the definition of a machine gun. The ATF issued a cease and desist letter for the device they did not approve. Akins challenged the decision and lost in court because the court found the device to work as a machine gun as defined by law . Akins accelerator owners were required to send the springs into the ATF. Akins went out of business.

Next example....
Did Congress have any thing to do with that ruling at all? Nope.
 
Did Congress have any thing to do with that ruling at all? Nope.
Yes. The National Firearms Act of 1934 defined a machine gun. The ATF is the regulatory agency that interprets and enforces the law. The courts agreed that Akins broke an existing law. What part of that do you have issue with understanding? Congress makes a law then its the courts that handle the fallout. The ATF doesnt keep going back to the Congress for clarification of anything and they dont get Congress involved in enforcement action like Waco and Ruby Ridge. No government agency does that. That is the courts job. Congress can get involved down the road if the ATF goes rogue and "over enforces" the law but that doesnt change the law or the ATF's role unless Congress deems changing their role is necessary. Sometimes people get reprimaded or fired but not often. Agencies have pretty broad leeway in enforcement . Karesh was a bad dude and several govt agencies were there to take him in. He resisted forcefully and likely burned his own compound and people to the ground. Ruby Ridge was just a monumental F up by all sides ATF and Weaver included..

Akins:

Executive ✔️
Congress ✔️
Courts ✔️
Constitution satisfied ✔️

You want to look at an example of where the ATF actually did overstep its bounds and had its undersized government peepee slapped by the courts look at US v. Thompson Center where the "once a rifle always a rifle" rule by the ATF was thrown out because it had no basis in law.

Rare Breed will previal in court. FRT-15 triggers are still for sale because RB chose to fight the ATF , who incidentally did NOT issue a ruling against Rare Breed.
 
Last Edited:
Yes. The National Firearms Act of 1934 defined a machine gun. The ATF is the regulatory agency that interprets and enforces the law. The courts agreed that Akins broke an existing law. What part of that do you have issue with understanding? Congress makes a law then its the courts that handle the fallout. The ATF doesnt keep going back to the Congress for clarification of anything and they dont get Congress involved in enforcement action like Waco and Ruby Ridge. No government agency does that. That is the courts job. Congress can get involved down the road if the ATF goes rogue and "over enforces" the law but that doesnt change the law or the ATF's role unless Congress deems changing their role is necessary. Sometimes people get reprimaded or fired but not often. Agencies have pretty broad leeway in enforcement . Karesh was a bad dude and several govt agencies were there to take him in. He resisted forcefully and likely burned his own compound and people to the ground. Ruby Ridge was just a monumental F up by all sides ATF and Weaver included..

Akins:

Executive ✔️
Congress ✔️
Courts ✔️
Constitution satisfied ✔️

You want to look at an example of where the ATF actually did overstep its bounds and had its undersized government peepee slapped by the courts look at US v. Thompson Center where the "once a rifle always a rifle" rule by the ATF was thrown out because it had no basis in law.

Rare Breed will previal in court. FRT-15 triggers are still for sale because RB chose to fight the ATF , who incidentally did NOT issue a ruling against Rare Breed.
A ruling has not been issued against Rarebreed as of yet.
 
A ruling has not been issued against Rarebreed as of yet.
Correct , The ATF isssued a Cease and Desist letter from a field agent in Florida. That is not an ATF ruling and their offices and files have not been raided because deep down the ATF knows they dont have a legal leg to stand on. If and when it does go in front of a judge RB's case is very good.
 
Correct , The ATF received a Cease and Desist letter from a field agent in Florida. That is not an ATF ruling and their offices and files have not been raided because deep down the ATF knows they dont have a legal leg to stand on. If and when it does go in front of a judge RB's case is very good.
It was a baseless cease and desist with no verifacation of their so called....."determination", but can not provide proof of said determination.
 
Yes, and that is why they are still for sale. Thats just one dipsh!t agent doing something dumb.
I am sure this dumb field agent called his superiors and is acting on their behalf. It goes alot higher than just a field agent in a local office. Plus since this all came out. Two other companies are now selling thier own version which comes with other problems.
 

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