First time loading for .308 Winchester and need some help/advice.

[Mikej]

Yeah, it's about $24 per tin over here too.

Amazon.com : imperial sizing wax

Hey! Somethings gone totally nuts here. I ordered THIS >>>>
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/jc-higgins-model-30.360897/#post-2863151 On December 19th. I think it was $10.00-$12.00 W/free shipping!

 

[tac]

Yeah, it's about $24 per tin over here too.

Amazon.com : imperial sizing wax

o.

 

[DizzyJ]

Parashooter over on Swissrifles.com has used olive oil forever.

YMMV.

Yeah, but he cooks with Hornady One-Shot, so there's that....

 

[ron]

Ahh, thank you for this ^. Everything I've read, so far, has only indicated a "Possible" issue with ripping the rim off .308 brass in the BM59 because of the higher pressure developed over 7.62 NATO ammo. After reading I believe the gun to be plenty stout to withstand the extra pressure, though at some point there's a chance of battering/bending stuff using .308.

In 30 years of shooting M1s and M1A (on the third barrel change) I have ripped the case head off of one piece of 308
with my M1A. The LC 89 brass had several reloads on it. I found the case head and the other half of the brass on the
ground. The separated case had been ejected from the rifle! I carry a broken shell extractor but have never had to use it.
@Mikej If your load is not hot and the brass is not worn out I think you need not worry about case head separation.

 

[DizzyJ]

I shoot my 308 reloads in a Savage bolt and a NM M1A. 30 years of competition shooting with the M1A.
I always use LC brass and standard RCBS full length dies. My goal is the most accurate ammo possible.
Which has resulted in .5 inch groups at 200 yards (bolt gun). My charge weight for IMR 4064 is near the "starting point"
in the reloading manuals. Reduced powder charge when using LC brass as most reloading manuals recommend.
Uniform case neck tension is imperative for accuracy. Brass all the same year, trim length and number of reloads. I have
one batch (over 1K) of LC 89 match and another batch (1K) of LC 74 match. LC Match brass has no crimp. 20 years
ago I used the RCBS lube pad. Cleaning the lube off is a PIA. I used Dillon sizing lube for many years but the
home made lanolin works better and is cheaper. I have used Hornady one shot I have found it to work but more care
needed to insure all cases are completely lubed not so with home made type. Dimples on case shoulder indicates too
much lube. As others have said let it dry. About 10 minutes. After sizing or reloading I clean the lube off by misting with
water and rolling it in a towel. I said reloading because I have lubed the brass and run it through my 550 to compete loaded
ammo. Not so much with 308 but batches of 223 or 30/06 brass I will completely load it on a 550. Mist the loaded ammo
with water and roll in a towel. No issues doing it this way for Highpower competition with AR, M1 and M1A rifles.
Typically 88 rounds at a time for each match.
As for using motor oil for case lube?? I would not risk oil contamination of the primer.
View attachment 832108

If you don't mind me asking, what is your personal technique for ensuring consistent neck tension?

 

[Mikej]

In 30 years of shooting M1s and M1A (on the third barrel change) I have ripped the case head off of one piece of 308
with my M1A. The LC 89 brass had several reloads on it. I found the case head and the other half of the brass on the
ground. The separated case had been ejected from the rifle! I carry a broken shell extractor but have never had to use it.
@Mikej If your load is not hot and the brass is not worn out I think you need not worry about case head separation.

I'm not really worried. This BM59 is a product of James River Armory. Their recommendation is to use 7.62 NATO. Personally I like the idea of using the recommended lower pressure ammo for going easier on the gun. I also like the idea of heavier, more durable(?) 7.62 brass.

 

[ron]

If you don't mind me asking, what is your personal technique for ensuring consistent neck tension?

Same type, year and number of reloads. Verify by group testing. With 223 reloads I have found accuracy
varies by type of brass. I have never ben able to reload LC 223 brass to shoot as well as Winchester brass.
Winchester brass about 1/2 the group size. I sometimes get crazy and separate by brass by weight.
But that is only reserved for the 600 yard line.

 

[DizzyJ]

Same type, year and number of reloads. Verify by group testing. With 223 reloads I have found accuracy
varies by type of brass. I have never ben able to reload LC 223 brass to shoot as well as Winchester brass.
Winchester brass about 1/2 the group size. I sometimes get crazy and separate by brass by weight.
But that is only reserved for the 600 yard line.

Good to know. Do you anneal? If so, after how many loads?
Thanks!

 

[ron]

Good to know. Do you anneal? If so, after how many loads?
Thanks!

No annealing. I am not a bench rest or F class shooter. There accuracy is defiantly at a different level.
Palma rifle competition shooters are mostly all 308 chambered rifles. Iron sights with aperture front and rear sights.
I know these guys anneal there cases. Most of these guys use exspensive Lapua brass. Picture here is the
Paul Bunyan International match Palma rifles closest to the camera. It was a 2 day match. The winner
dropped 0ne point from a perfect score in 2 days!!!!

 

[DizzyJ]

No annealing. I am not a bench rest or F class shooter. There accuracy is defiantly at a different level.
Palma rifle competition shooters are mostly all 308 chambered rifles. Iron sights with aperture front and rear sights.
I know these guys anneal there cases. Most of these guys use exspensive Lapua brass. Picture here is the
Paul Bunyan International match Palma rifles closest to the camera. It was a 2 day match. The winner
dropped 0ne point from a perfect score in 2 days!!!!
View attachment 832219

Appreciate your info. I'm comparing notes to my brass prep. I'm always eager to learn what I don't know, or "think" I already know.

 

[BigDog67]

Yeah, it's about $24 per tin over here too.

Amazon.com : imperial sizing wax

I just bought a tin at my LGS for $10.

 

[Lennie]

I anneal, but mainly to gain case longevity. Hard core target shooters anneal to insure the case neck tension on the bullet is consistent.

 

[gmerkt]

use graphite as a case neck lube material. I still have graphite powder for lubing inside of case necks supplied by RCBS and Hornady. For more info Google "graphite powder for reloading".

Powdered mica is also sold for lubing inside case necks.

 

[AMT]

I stated dimensions were the same. Why would I think there were sperate die sets?
What I would like to find out is just how much more a NATO stamped brass weighs in comparison to .308 stamped brass? Seeing as all I have is 7.62X51 M80 ammo.

I started grabbing 5 of each "like" brass. Then after sorting until my eyes crossed I just started grabbing whatever was "different" than I already weighed. Here's what I got....

Stamp:	Grains:
FC 05 (NATO)	178.1​
	178.0​
	178.2​
	178.7​
	178.4​
FC	174.9​
	176.5​
	176.3​
	175.0​
	174.7​
LC 05 (NATO)	177.2​
	176.5​
	177.5​
	176.7​
	176.3​
LC 15 (NATO)	176.9​
	176.2​
	178.5​
	178.7​
	177.8​
IK03 7.62x51	172.5​
	168.3​
	170.1​
LC 72 MATCH	182.1​
	181.1​
	181.2​
PMP 308 WIN	175.8​
	174.5​
HORNADY	165.4​
WW SUPER 308 WIN	156.7​
FRONTIER	165.3​
WRA 68 (NATO)	180.2​
ABT 7.62	155.2​
AFF 91	181.9​
IMI 11 (NATO)	180.0​

 

[Marine Airedale]

I have been using one shot for decades and have loaded many, many thousands of rounds of 7.62x51 almost all of it LC brass. I lube differently that you describe though. It is a pain in the chair padding but I set them up on the rim end and spray the batch from all four directions. Almost all of the brass I have was used in a M60 (yeah, I am that old, aerial gunner)(wish I had grabbed up a bunch of the 50 cal brass from the 46s). I have always swaged the primer crimp.

 

[Mikej]

I started grabbing 5 of each "like" brass. Then after sorting until my eyes crossed I just started grabbing whatever was "different" than I already weighed. Here's what I got....

Stamp:	Grains:
FC 05 (NATO)	178.1​
	178.0​
	178.2​
	178.7​
	178.4​
FC	174.9​
	176.5​
	176.3​
	175.0​
	174.7​
LC 05 (NATO)	177.2​
	176.5​
	177.5​
	176.7​
	176.3​
LC 15 (NATO)	176.9​
	176.2​
	178.5​
	178.7​
	177.8​
IK03 7.62x51	172.5​
	168.3​
	170.1​
LC 72 MATCH	182.1​
	181.1​
	181.2​
PMP 308 WIN	175.8​
	174.5​
HORNADY	165.4​
WW SUPER 308 WIN	156.7​
FRONTIER	165.3​
WRA 68 (NATO)	180.2​
ABT 7.62	155.2​
AFF 91	181.9​
IMI 11 (NATO)	180.0​

That's above and beyond the call of duty right there. Seeing as haven't had a chance to weigh both because I don't have empty cases, yet, of the 7.62 X 51. And I don't have any cases at all of .308. I'm going to assume the FC above is stamped .308? It looks like there's about 20 grains difference between .308 stamped and 7.62 stamped. Some of those others aren't as close as the LC. And LC match looks more uniform than all of them.

 

[AMT]

That's above and beyond the call of duty right there. Seeing as haven't had a chance to weigh both because I don't have empty cases, yet, of the 7.62 X 51. And I don't have any cases at all of .308. I'm going to assume the FC above is stamped .308? It looks like there's about 20 grains difference between .308 stamped and 7.62 stamped. Some of those others aren't as close as the LC. And LC match looks more uniform than all of them.

Yes, the FC brass is stamped "FC 308 WIN".

I was also surprised at the differences in weights between NATO and NON-NATO brass too.

 

[DizzyJ]

This is interesting. The military brass vs commercial brass for .223 doesn't show much of any difference with Remington being the outlier. Remington weighed a fair amount less and therefore allowed for more capacity. Not what I had expected.

 

[ma96782]

OK, things are getting closer to be loaded. But first, I have a couple more questions....

1. From what I am finding, LC brass is a NATO round and has a crimped primer. It is considered "thicker than normal" brass and is generally loaded roughly ~10% lower than published data because the reduced case capacity. There are posts on the forums that suggest to swag/remove the primer crimp prior to reloading it. Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

2. I have some FC brass that is also NATO. It has the circle with the '+' in the center. It also appears to have a crimped primer pocket. If this is also NATO brass does this mean that it is "thicker than normal" brass and should be loaded like the LC brass, starting roughly 10% low, because it too has a reduced case capacity? Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

3. I also have what appears to be non-NATO FC brass because it does not have the '+' inside the circle on the rim, nor does it have a crimped primer pocket. Does this indicate that it is "normal" brass and should be loaded to published data, because it should not have a reduced case capacity?


Thanks again for all your help!

Consider "consistency".

So....get one lot of ammo. Keep it as a lot. Shoot it as a lot and reload it as a lot. Your reload formula gets tweaked for this lot. When you start to have a number of failures (you decide the magic number) you can retire the lot.

My ASSUMPTIONS are......
That the sheet of metal used at that time and the machine's settings were consistent throughout the lot. HA, Ha, ha....or I wish that they were.

Yes, the primer crimp needs to be removed. You probably won't be able to reload the brass if it's not removed. Either method (swage or reamer) is acceptable. I've never found proof, that one method is superior to the other. But, there are theories as to why one is superior over the other. Rrrrright.....the method that I use is THE BEST. LOL.

Commercial ammo will not usually have a primer crimp. It's usually not needed or specd that way. The military on the other hand, makes it a part of the spec to have it. Think: Reliability could be affected if a primer were to fall out into the action and if the firearm were to jam up.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

I'm not really worried. This BM59 is a product of James River Armory. Their recommendation is to use 7.62 NATO. Personally I like the idea of using the recommended lower pressure ammo for going easier on the gun. I also like the idea of heavier, more durable(?) 7.62 brass.

I'm an M1 and M1a shooter. So, I don't exactly KNOW about a BM59 (a sort of M1 only redone by the Italians to fire 7.62) but anyway.....

The M1 Garand had issues.....with pressure curves and there was that thing about using heavy bullets (over 172 gr bullets). The long op rod was said to bend. Anyway.....that is why only specific powders were to be used for reloading. AND.....that is why M2 ball ammo from reputable manufacturers is the recommended route for the M1 Garand. Just grabbing any old .30-06 ammo off of the shelf at the gun store could lead to trouble.

IF I were you......I'd just use military brass and keep the loads "moderate". Find a burning rate chart and use the powders with a burning rate between what is recommended for the M1 Garand. Sorry, I had a chart but can't seem to find it right now. Bottom line: You're probably safe using the same powders as if you were making M1 Garand ammo. Of course the actual load data will differ being that you're loading for the 7.62 Nato cartridge.

Aloha, Mark

PS.......

"Powders for the Garand are limited to IMR 3031 as the fastest, and IMR 4320 as the slowest."

Taken from: M1Garand Powder | The High Road