First time loading for .308 Winchester and need some help/advice.

[ma96782]

I've recently learned, through extensive reading, that .308 bass and 7.62 NATO brass are not the same. I had to research because of a new gun that recommended only using 7.67 NATO because of the possibility of tearing rims of of the higher pressure .308 ammo. 7.62 NATO brass is heavier (thicker) than .308 brass. That tells me that LC (7.62 NATO?) brass is likely to feel different when sizing than .308. And also thicker brass may mean higher pressures when using .308 data in 7.62 NATO.

7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester Ammo, What’s The Difference?

Gun nut, Tom McHale, risks a fight to explain the subtle nuances between 7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester Ammunition.

www.ammoland.com

That's where I'm at in this discussion anyway.

Yes, they are different. But......have you ever seen a die set in 7.62x51 NATO at the store? LOL.

I wouldn't hold my breath while trying to look for a set.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Mikej]

Yes, they are different. But......have you ever seen a die set in 7.62x51 NATO at the store? LOL.

Aloha, Mark

I stated dimensions were the same. Why would I think there were sperate die sets?
What I would like to find out is just how much more a NATO stamped brass weighs in comparison to .308 stamped brass? Seeing as all I have is 7.62X51 M80 ammo.

 

[Xaevian]

Probably more telling would be how many grains of water each can hold.

 

[trevi]

CR_P !!!!

I thought you do it while they are still wet/damp!

CR_PPITY CR_P CR_P !!!!

Do not know if you are being sarcastic but I thought the same! I have reloading equipment but have yet to set up.

I was gonna as if light motor oil coating would be a good substitute, man I would be wrong!!

 

[BigDog67]

Do not know if you are being sarcastic but I thought the same! I have reloading equipment but have yet to set up.

I was gonna as if light motor oil coating would be a good substitute, man I would be wrong!!

NO!!!! Any residual oil will kill your primer and powder.

 

[Dr Prepper]

To put it plainly what ive heard is basically since (modern) bolt action rifles have become stronger over the years and powder development has improved preformance they can get away with loading commercial .308 a bit more powerful for popular hunting rilfes. Without any ill effect.
Not so with the semi autos.

Mine has an adjustable gas block so im not too terribly concerned with this. Also the medium heavy JP SCS. With two tungsten weights. Ill buy a third if i need to.
I also have the small diameter firing pin BCG from toolcraft with the double ejectors.

All this leads me to believe a person should reduce loads in 7.62 and NATO marked brass to hit the same pressures and velocities of ammo loaded in .308 brass.

I believe rhis is generally correct. But keep in mind not ALL commercial brass is the same either. I think starline is thicker and also falls into that category. Its the basis of why you should download at start from scratch whenever changing ANY component.

And also case volume is a more accurate gauge to go by.

It will take a long while but i will be working on cleaning/sizing/trimming all brass of various makes so its as uniform as possible and them weighing them on my newly acquired sartorius 310 or 301ps which is accurate down to .001gm. or .02gn.
And ill be doing h2o capacity as well.
Same with .45's

 

[ma96782]

I stated dimensions were the same. Why would I think there were sperate die sets?
What I would like to find out is just how much more a NATO stamped brass weighs in comparison to .308 stamped brass? Seeing as all I have is 7.62X51 M80 ammo.

The dimensions are different. Check the headspace dimensions.

Miscellaneous Questions 4 (frfrogspad.com)

But.....to me.....it doesn't make a difference when you're talking about reloading your ammo/brass. I use the .308 Win die set and I don't worry about the rest. Truthfully, I've never seen a set of reloading dies (on the shelf) for 7.62 NATO.

NOTE THAT.....
The chambers that are cut are also different. So, when building your rifle you should talk with your gunsmith about what you "exactly" want. If you want to shoot both .308 Win and 7.62 NATO, you need to tell him/her.

As for brass weights?

Commercial 308 brass is almost universally lighter than 7.62 brass by 10-20 grains. Obviously that varies with manufacturers of each, but there is a distinct difference in both weight and case capacity.

Taken from: 7.62 vs. .308 Brass | Sniper's Hide Forum

My own measurements from just two examples (with the expended primers) of brass went.....

158 grains = headstamped, W-W SUPER .308 WIN

182 grains = headstamped, LC 86 MATCH

5.56 and 7.62 Case Capacities (loaddata.com)

Aloha, Mark

 

[Dr Prepper]

NO!!!! Any residual oil will kill your primer and powder.

Yeah.. This.. Dont contaminate unless your absolutely SURE it is made for that. The hornady stuff is formulated for this. I believe the same is true for imperial dry.
I want to look into lanolin for this. I looked into once before but cant remember.

One point of note on dry lubes is some (such as mica) often are mined from places where silica is a by product and some makes it through refinement. Silica is an abrasive. So theres fine grit making its way in with the lubricant.
Not sure if the same is true with Moly or MoS2
Me personally i dont want any polish/grit or otherwise in my chamber/ barrel unless i specifically put it there.

 

[AMT]

Do not know if you are being sarcastic but I thought the same! I have reloading equipment but have yet to set up.

I was gonna as if light motor oil coating would be a good substitute, man I would be wrong!!

Unfortunately, I was NOT being sarcastic. I honestly thought you deprimed/sized while they were still "wet".

 

[AMT]

NO!!!! Any residual oil will kill your primer and powder.

Unless the vent hole in the die gets plugged why couldn't someone use a "light motor oil" for lube?

As long as you THOROUGHLY clean the cases afterwards, why not?

Yeah it would be a nasty oily mess and there could be a possibility of oil contamination.

When I process brass I lube, size/deprime. Then I throw them in a solution that 80%+ cleans the shells (1C vinegar, 4C water, 1Tbs salt, 1Tbs liquid dish soap). Let set and agitate on and off for about 30 mins. Take them out of the solution and rinse WELL with warm water. Then I throw them in a wet tumbler with stainless pins for about 2 hours.

Yeah, I may be a little OCD but they come out looking dang near new.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Unless the vent hole in the die gets plugged why couldn't someone use a "light motor oil" for lube?

As long as you THOROUGHLY clean the cases afterwards, why not?

Yeah it would be a nasty oily mess and there could be a possibility of oil contamination.

When I process brass I lube, size/deprime. Then I throw them in a solution that 80%+ cleans the shells (1C vinegar, 4C water, 1Tbs salt, 1Tbs liquid dish soap). Let set and agitate on and off for about 30 mins. Take them out of the solution and rinse WELL with warm water. Then I throw them in a wet tumbler with stainless pins for about 2 hours.

Yeah, I may be a little OCD but they come out looking dang near new.

Most likely hydraulic denting which occurs with too much lube build up.
You could try it. But at your own perril.
Im sure theres a reason why.

Some cases such as pistol cases with a carbide ring dont REQUIRE lube at all. The carbide is polished and its sort of self lubricating (Not literally, but thats the effect)

 

[DizzyJ]

If somebody DOES use motor oil for the lube, I'd like to hear the results. Most case lubes are a LOT thicker than motor oil.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Personally ive been using hornady. I think its called unique? Ill dbl check shortly. I bought a lifetime supply (which is two little tubs)
I also have some forster stuff that says its specifically made for resizing and case forming such as wild catting and such.

Seems to work good so far but it is slow. But i never aim to crank out ammo as fast as possible. No matter what im doing its for ultimate accuracy. Yeah it might be a little crazy tedious especially for 9mm but you know what they say: "practice makes perfect"

 

[tac]

Imperial sizing wax for me - well, for the last fifty years or so that is. When I find something better I might just give it a try...

Parashooter over on Swissrifles.com has used olive oil forever.

YMMV.

 

[Lennie]

This is my choice. The contemporary RCBS case lube is water soluble. After sizing, I place the cases in a large plastic bowl and rinse the lube off with water. Then I place the drained cases on a shop towel on an old cookie baking pan to dry. I'm not in a hurry; kept in the house overnight they are dry next day.

You want enough lube on them to do the job without making a big chore of it. I tend to drizzle the lube on the center of the pad. Cases are tightest in the die at the web, not up on the neck. So you don't want a lot of lube at the shoulder to avoid hydraulic dents from excess lube. So when I roll mine in the middle of the pad, they are getting more lube on the web and less on the neck and shoulder areas.

I've got some Imperial sizing wax, it's good lube but not water soluble.

My experience with spray lube (forget what brand) wasn't favorable to my needs. I've sized lots of LC brass in small base dies using the RCBS lube. They've always sized fairly easily and never close to getting a stuck case. As a matter of fact, in close to 40 years of reloading I've never experienced that.

One other thing, you might consider lubing inside the neck as well. With lube on a Q-tip. This makes for easy passage of the sizing ball which reduces case length growth. As well as making the work easier. I tried the powdered mica technique, that didn't work nearly as well for me as regular lube on a Q-tip.

I use carbide expanders. With clean cases, no powder residue inside of neck, I have zero case length issues. I carbide expanders eliminate the need to lube case lengths,
Another great solution I used, before I totally moved to carbide expanders, was to use graphite as a case neck lube material. I still have graphite powder for lubing inside of case necks supplied by RCBS and Hornady. For more info Google "graphite powder for reloading".

 

[Lennie]

For lubing the outside of cases. I am become a solid convert to one shot lube. I sometimes do 200 cases at a time. To do this, I use a large bowl. I spray the cases in the bowl and then stir the cases and keep repeating the process until I can feel the right amount of lube on each case. I normally allow the lube to dry before loading the cases. Last week, I loaded 308 and because I was in a hurry to load about 100, the lube was still moist on the cases. I have used one shot lube to load over 50,000 plus rounds, among which were numerous military cases, and have yet to experience a stuck case. My imperial wax, RCBS and other type lubes have seen zero use in the last five years.

 

[ron]

I shoot my 308 reloads in a Savage bolt and a NM M1A. 30 years of competition shooting with the M1A.
I always use LC brass and standard RCBS full length dies. My goal is the most accurate ammo possible.
Which has resulted in .5 inch groups at 200 yards (bolt gun). My charge weight for IMR 4064 is near the "starting point"
in the reloading manuals. Reduced powder charge when using LC brass as most reloading manuals recommend.
Uniform case neck tension is imperative for accuracy. Brass all the same year, trim length and number of reloads. I have
one batch (over 1K) of LC 89 match and another batch (1K) of LC 74 match. LC Match brass has no crimp. 20 years
ago I used the RCBS lube pad. Cleaning the lube off is a PIA. I used Dillon sizing lube for many years but the
home made lanolin works better and is cheaper. I have used Hornady one shot I have found it to work but more care
needed to insure all cases are completely lubed not so with home made type. Dimples on case shoulder indicates too
much lube. As others have said let it dry. About 10 minutes. After sizing or reloading I clean the lube off by misting with
water and rolling it in a towel. I said reloading because I have lubed the brass and run it through my 550 to compete loaded
ammo. Not so much with 308 but batches of 223 or 30/06 brass I will completely load it on a 550. Mist the loaded ammo
with water and roll in a towel. No issues doing it this way for Highpower competition with AR, M1 and M1A rifles.
Typically 88 rounds at a time for each match.
As for using motor oil for case lube?? I would not risk oil contamination of the primer.

 

[Mikej]

The dimensions are different. Check the headspace dimensions.

Miscellaneous Questions 4 (frfrogspad.com)

But.....to me.....it doesn't make a difference when you're talking about reloading your ammo/brass. I use the .308 Win die set and I don't worry about the rest. Truthfully, I've never seen a set of reloading dies (on the shelf) for 7.62 NATO.

NOTE THAT.....
The chambers that are cut are also different. So, when building your rifle you should talk with your gunsmith about what you "exactly" want. If you want to shoot both .308 Win and 7.62 NATO, you need to tell him/her.

As for brass weights?



Taken from: 7.62 vs. .308 Brass | Sniper's Hide Forum

My own measurements from just two examples of brass went.....

158 grains = headstamped, W-W SUPER .308 WIN

182 grains = headstamped, LC 86 MATCH

5.56 and 7.62 Case Capacities (loaddata.com)

Aloha, Mark

Ahh, thank you for this ^. Everything I've read, so far, has only indicated a "Possible" issue with ripping the rim off .308 brass in the BM59 because of the higher pressure developed over 7.62 NATO ammo. After reading I believe the gun to be plenty stout to withstand the extra pressure, though at some point there's a chance of battering/bending stuff using .308.

 

[tac]

For lubing the outside of cases. I am become a solid convert to one shot lube. I sometimes do 200 cases at a time. To do this, I use a large bowl. I spray the cases in the bowl and then stir the cases and keep repeating the process until I can feel the right amount of lube on each case. I normally allow the lube to dry before loading the cases. Last week, I loaded 308 and because I was in a hurry to load about 100, the lube was still moist on the cases. I have used one shot lube to load over 50,000 plus rounds, among which were numerous military cases, and have yet to experience a stuck case. My imperial wax, RCBS and other type lubes have seen zero use in the last five years.

In which case, you might be in a generous mood and consider sending it over here, where it costs about twenty bucks a tin.

 

[AMT]

In which case, you might be in a generous mood and consider sending it over here, where it costs about twenty bucks a tin.

Yeah, it's about $24 per tin over here too.

Amazon.com : imperial sizing wax