First time loading for .308 Winchester and need some help/advice.

tac

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THE BEST 308 powder. IMR 4064. IMHO Same load I use in my M1A.

IMR 4064 for me, until the European-wide ban.

Apparently, if you sprinkle between half and one pound of it on your breakfast cereal every morning for 628 years, you stand a one in fifty-six thousand chance of developing some kind of cancer.

Really not worth taking the chance, is it? :rolleyes:
 

BigDog67

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IMR 4064 for me, until the European-wide ban.

Apparently, if you sprinkle between half and one pound of it on your breakfast cereal every morning for 628 years, you stand a one in fifty-six thousand chance of developing some kind of cancer.

Really not worth taking the chance, is it? :rolleyes:
Fooled them. I don't eat breakfast cereal. :p
 

tac

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Fooled them. I don't eat breakfast cereal. :p
Hah! In that case, within your lifetime, which alters the figures somewhat, you have a one in 7.655 trillion chance of being struck by a falling penguin whilst exiting King Street train station concourse, but only on a Tuesday, it seems.
 
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BigDog67

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Hah! In that case, within your lifetime, which alters the figures somewhat, you have a one in 7.655 trillion chance of being struck by a falling penguin whilst exiting King Street train station concourse, but only on a Tuesday, it seems.
Hence the bumbershoot.
 

osprey

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Thanks for all the assist, hints and tips! It has gotten me a long way. Thank you!

I've finished popping the primers and have cleaned the brass. (thanks to the lanolin and 91% ISO Alcohol - AND letting it dry first!!! hahahaha)

Next will be sizing to length. Then hitting the primer pocket and touching the case mouth on the Layman shell case prep machine.

Got another question..... according to Hodgdon website (I am not sitting in front of my reloading manual right now) is suggests to use "Federal 210M, Large Rifle Match" primers. Being that primers have vaporized, is there a reason for 210M (Match) primers? Is there that big of a difference between Fed. 210M and Fed. 210? Others on the interwebs have suggested that Fed. 210 and CCI 200 works just fine too.

It has been suggest to NOT use Large Rifle Magnum primers (Fed. 215 or CCI 250) in place of the Large rifle primers (Fed. 210 or CCI 200).

I am not competition shooting. These are not being loaded in a bolt gun. They are for an AR-10. I just want to be able to group fairly ok at 100-150 yards. "Group fairly ok" to me is hitting an 10" paper plate in a group as big as my hand.

Would using any "Large Rifle" primer be ok to use, as long as it is not a "Magnum" primer?

Thanks again!


View attachment 793700
The only thing I will add is federal primers have a thinner cup than other primers and so they could be possibly be more prone to a slam fire in an ar10 with a floating firing pin design. Some will preach to use only the military primer versions in ar’s but I have shot thousands of rounds through various ar’s with standard cci large and small rifle primers. In todays climate I would use what you can get your hands on and just be cognizant of muzzle discipline when chambering a round and firing weapon. Be especially vigilant when chambering and firing the first few reloads in your ar10. Happy reloading.
 
OP
AMT

AMT

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OK, things are getting closer to be loaded. But first, I have a couple more questions....

1. From what I am finding, LC brass is a NATO round and has a crimped primer. It is considered "thicker than normal" brass and is generally loaded roughly ~10% lower than published data because the reduced case capacity. There are posts on the forums that suggest to swag/remove the primer crimp prior to reloading it. Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

2. I have some FC brass that is also NATO. It has the circle with the '+' in the center. It also appears to have a crimped primer pocket. If this is also NATO brass does this mean that it is "thicker than normal" brass and should be loaded like the LC brass, starting roughly 10% low, because it too has a reduced case capacity? Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

3. I also have what appears to be non-NATO FC brass because it does not have the '+' inside the circle on the rim, nor does it have a crimped primer pocket. Does this indicate that it is "normal" brass and should be loaded to published data, because it should not have a reduced case capacity?


Thanks again for all your help!
 

DizzyJ

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OK, things are getting closer to be loaded. But first, I have a couple more questions....

1. From what I am finding, LC brass is a NATO round and has a crimped primer. It is considered "thicker than normal" brass and is generally loaded roughly ~10% lower than published data because the reduced case capacity. There are posts on the forums that suggest to swag/remove the primer crimp prior to reloading it. Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

2. I have some FC brass that is also NATO. It has the circle with the '+' in the center. It also appears to have a crimped primer pocket. If this is also NATO brass does this mean that it is "thicker than normal" brass and should be loaded like the LC brass, starting roughly 10% low, because it too has a reduced case capacity? Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

3. I also have what appears to be non-NATO FC brass because it does not have the '+' inside the circle on the rim, nor does it have a crimped primer pocket. Does this indicate that it is "normal" brass and should be loaded to published data, because it should not have a reduced case capacity?


Thanks again for all your help!
I think as long as you start at the bottom end of the load chart you’ll be fine with either case.
 

Dyjital

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I’ve never loaded NATO brass lower than my other brass.
I also don’t run at the high end of the scale when it comes to powder charges.

All my brass is what it is and they are treated the same. I have some lots separated due to likeness (RP, Federal, Hornady).

NATO stamp means nothing.

You may opt to run it different than me and that’s just fine.
 
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Dr Prepper

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i have a question thats kinda along the same lines/situation.

first off im somewhat new to reloading as well. not a noob, never an expert. i recently purchased some RCBS small base dies because:
1. i am reloading for an ar10
2. they were about all i could find
these wont overwork the bases to much will they? i have some decent LC m118 LR loaded ammo and cases which are WWC nato cases and id like to make them last fairly long. i also have quite a bit of regular FC brass and win and others from .308 etc that i dont care as much about. i figure ill probably be loading some general cheap plinkers and some higher grade ammo eventually hopefully i can find some nice redding premium dies sooner or later (or might just save those for the 6.5CM if i can ever find Dies/cases/seeds) and leave the .308 entirely for plinking.

also can anyone recommend a better than average case gauge. i used to know of one with the cutout window i forgot who makes them?
sorry ill answer my own question, just realized im using FF browser and i bookmarked it on here, on my phone.
the answer is the Sheridan engineering case gauges. spendy but nice. i need to pick up a few more of those.

Sry AMT hope you dont mind me riding your coat tales a bit..?
 
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Mikej

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OK, things are getting closer to be loaded. But first, I have a couple more questions....

1. From what I am finding, LC brass is a NATO round and has a crimped primer. It is considered "thicker than normal" brass and is generally loaded roughly ~10% lower than published data because the reduced case capacity. There are posts on the forums that suggest to swag/remove the primer crimp prior to reloading it. Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

2. I have some FC brass that is also NATO. It has the circle with the '+' in the center. It also appears to have a crimped primer pocket. If this is also NATO brass does this mean that it is "thicker than normal" brass and should be loaded like the LC brass, starting roughly 10% low, because it too has a reduced case capacity? Should I swag/remove the primer crimp?

3. I also have what appears to be non-NATO FC brass because it does not have the '+' inside the circle on the rim, nor does it have a crimped primer pocket. Does this indicate that it is "normal" brass and should be loaded to published data, because it should not have a reduced case capacity?


Thanks again for all your help!
Any good questions in this thread may help me too.

:s0155:
[/QUOTE]

So, I'm hearing you should just load what ever you want from the data in the book in the above posts?. I've done some reading on this because I picked up a Beretta BM59. https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Beretta_BM59 The recommended ammo for this rifle 7.62X51 NATO. From reading, .308 and 7.62 nato brass are the same dimensions. However there is a slight difference in the thickness between .308 and 7.62 nato. 7.62 nato is purportedly slightly thicker heavier brass to help it withstand being used in full auto firearms. Another difference is that, unlike the difference between .223 and 5.56, 7.62, the military round runs at a lower pressure than .308. It's possible shooting .308 in a firearm designed to run on 7.62 nato to have a more violent cycling and rims being torn off the lighter/higher pressure .308 rounds. None of this I believe would be a concern in a bolt gun.

Now to your concerns. Anybody correct me if 'm wrong here. I'm learning too.

I "believe" that if brass is labeled "7.62 x51, without circle/cross, that it would still be the NATO equivalent. In pressure and brass thickness. The 7.62x51 by PPU I'm shooting in the BM59 does not have the circle cross on it, but it does have "M80" on the military style box, which from reading I believe makes it the NATO equivalent. as far as your brass goes. Would you please weigh your NATO brass against you non NATO? That is, IF you have brass that is labeled ".308"? All this leads me to believe a person should reduce loads in 7.62 and NATO marked brass to hit the same pressures and velocities of ammo loaded in .308 brass.
 

tac

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One source notes that some commercial .308Win loads can be as much as 10% more lively than an equal weight bullet 7.62x51 NATO round.

Please note that the original 7.62x51 bullet weighed in at just 147gr, now mostly 150gr. With modern .308 Win loads using bullets up to 190/200gr, it's obvious that some serious differences in pressure inside that little brass bottle are taking place. FYI, the UK/CIP proof pressure for 7.62x51 is just 20 tons per square inch.

Here is some interesting data to give you something to mull over -

1614100172536.png

7.62×51mm NATO cartridge dimensions. All dimensions in millimeters (mm).

Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 = 20 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 305 mm (1 in 12 in), 4 grooves, Ø lands = 7.62 mm, Ø grooves = 7.82 mm, land width = 4.47 mm. The primer type can be Berdan or Boxer Large Rifle.

According to the official NATO EPVAT NAAG-LG/3-SG/1 rulings the 7.62×51mm NATO can handle up to 415.00 MPa (60,191 psi) Pmax piezo pressure. The proof round pressure requirement is 521.30 MPa (75,608 psi) piezo pressure recorded in a NATO design EPVAT barrel with a Kistler 6215 transducer, HPI GP6 transducer or by equipment to C.I.P. requirements..

The 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge approaches the ballistic performance of the original U.S. military .30-06 Springfield M1906 service cartridge. Modern propellants allowed for similar performance from a smaller case with less case capacity, a case that requires less brass and yields a shorter cartridge. This shorter cartridge allows a slight reduction in the size and weight of firearms that chamber it, and better cycling in automatic and semi-automatic rifles. The .30-06 Springfield M1906 round weighed 26.1 grams (403 gr), and the 7.62×51mm NATO M80 round weighs 25.4 grams (392 gr)..

7.62×51mm NATO vs. .308 Winchester.
Although not identical, the military 7.62×51mm NATO and the commercial .308 Winchester cartridges are similar enough that they can be loaded into rifles chambered for the other round, but the .308 Winchester cartridges are typically loaded to higher pressures than 7.62×51mm NATO service cartridges. Even though the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) does not consider it unsafe to fire the commercial .308 Winchester rounds in weapons chambered for the military 7.62×51mm NATO round, there is significant discussion about compatible chambers and muzzle pressures between the two cartridges based on powder loads, chamber dimensions and wall thicknesses in the web area of the military compared to commercial cartridge cases. As the chambers differ accordingly the head space gauges used for the two chamberings differ.

You choose.
 

BigDog67

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Okay. I have M1a and a bolt .308, so I load for both. This is just MY experience, others may have other observations and experiences.
First, I believe the NON-NATO 7.62 ammos ARE made to military specs but are not manufactured FOR the military.
Now whether the primer is crimped in I can't say, all of the PPU I have came with the cross and circle. And I have shot it in my bolt rifle.
I have also shot .308 ammo in my M1a with no ill effects. But from what I have observed, the M1a seems to be a LOT easier on brass than other platforms. Some of the stuff I find at the range chewed up beyond any further use.
I have also reloaded with standard primers as opposed to "Military" primers with no ill effects, but I understand that Federals are TOO sensitive and should be avoided. I used to use S&B primers for the M1a as they seem to be pretty hard/thick as primers go.
And lastly, my Hornady book (6th edition) does have a separate section for 7.62x51, my others do not. Although Speer has a separate section for 5.56.
 

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