Article proving that ladder tests don't work for load development

[DizzyJ]

Also, if you are not working with bullets with decent consistency, it is going to be a long day.

My thought as well. .22 cal bullets aren't that expensive. Go with a known quality brand that gives some of the best consistencies.
Berger
SMK
Hornady
Nosler
Etc

 

[Ben B.]

Data from 100 shots at 200 yards. I think this is a very accurate rifle/load combo.

Randomly select any 5 shots and do that 3 times. What will the groups look like? It depends on which 5 you get.

Treat the randomly selected groups as if that is what you shot:

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with all 15 shots in pretty much the same 1" area will you say that repeatable small samples proved your hummer .5 MOA load?

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with all 15 shots scattered about from the overall group, will you say "This load needs seating depth work/different charge weight/different powder?"

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with 3 tight groups in different quadrants of the overall grouping, will you say, " Yep, the wind switched up on me, but they are still all .5MOA."

But they were all just small samples from the large 100 shot group.

 

[bpyycpyy]

I think this is a very accurate rifle/load combo.

I'd agree with that having only a SD of 12.7 fps over 100 rounds.

 

[arakboss]

View attachment 2117992

Data from 100 shots at 200 yards. I think this is a very accurate rifle/load combo.

Randomly select any 5 shots and do that 3 times. What will the groups look like? It depends on which 5 you get.

Treat the randomly selected groups as if that is what you shot:

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with all 15 shots in pretty much the same 1" area will you say that repeatable small samples proved your hummer .5 MOA load?

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with all 15 shots scattered about from the overall group, will you say "This load needs seating depth work/different charge weight/different powder?"

If your randomly selected 3 groups of 5 end up with 3 tight groups in different quadrants of the overall grouping, will you say, " Yep, the wind switched up on me, but they are still all .5MOA."

But they were all just small samples from the large 100 shot group.

If I shoot a single 20rnd group or four 5rnd groups in 20 mins, I would expect the MOA results to be similar. I could see fatigue setting in at 100rnds.

 

[Ben B.]

If the later shots are as equally distributed as the early shots, will you retain that position?

 

[osprey]

As a hunter this is probably getting a bit far into the weeds for my needs. If my big game rifle can consistently produce 3 shot groups around 1moa at poa over several different occasions, I am good. Although for prairie dog shooting I would consider larger groups to prove out loads. For competitive target shooting and especially disciplines with extended strings of fire, I can see the merit of the larger group analysis.

 

[arakboss]

As a hunter this is probably getting a bit far into the weeds for my needs. If my big game rifle can consistently produce 3 shot groups around 1moa at poa over several different occasions, I am good. Although for prairie dog shooting I would consider larger groups to prove out loads. For competitive target shooting and especially disciplines with extended strings of fire, I can see the merit of the larger group analysis.

I will never compete in F Class but my understanding is they shoot around 20rnds in 20mins or less. Our timer at the general purpose range is set at 20mins. I figure the 20rnds in 20 minutes seems like a reasonable number to aim for.

 

[rockicker]

TLDR the entire article.

But, is it any surprise that it was a bullet manufacturer that sent the author off on this tangent? OF COURSE HE WANTS YOU TO SHOOT MORE BULLETS!

You're welcome.

I had this thought multiple times as I read the article... I'm skeptical about some of the autistic nature surrounding "nodes" myself, but this seems like motive exists.

That said, imo, large sample sizes are a good thing if you can and want to spend the money and time on them.

 

[Bobbygun]

if you can and want to spend the money and time on them

Yep. I look for good enough and save my time, money and barrel.

 

[arakboss]

My groups may end up being 19rnd groups, instead of 20. My first shot of first group was barely on paper so I had to readjust my point of aim. 19 should be adequate to test this method. First group doesn't look great. On to second group.

Edit 1: Second group went a little better. All 20rnds landed on target. I am going to try and use all 10 aim points on my target today. Hopefully none of my groups shoot so wide that they crowd into other aim points.

Edit 2: blasted through my third group in 9mins. There is some steam coming off my barrel cooling towel. The group looks similar to my 2nd group. Primers have slightly flattened in groups 2 and 3.

Edit 3: 4th group h322, no bueno. Only got 18rnds on target due to bad QC at Ammo Producer, he wll be getting a complaint letter from me.



Edit 4: wheels fell off on 5th group. I had one round that wouldn't chamber and shot two rounds through my cooling towel. Not counting those in my group as they were way off the mark. I shouldn't have used one of my nice gym towels. I wonder if Amazon will take it back.

Edit 5: not a surprise but 6th group with 5744, sucked, probably 4 MOA.

Edit 6: group 7 with Alliant 10x did OK. Three more 20rnd groups to go for today and then I am going to switch rifles and see if my 30-06 is on paper.

Final edit for today. The wheels completely fell off with IMR4198 round. I predict difficult extraction job ahead. No damage to rifle that I can see. Shot seemed normal but was slightly outside the group of 7 other rounds. Time to try the 30-06.

 

[arakboss]

So far my Savage Axis is looking like a 2.5 to 3 MOA rifle.

 

[arakboss]

There is no way I am going to do 20rnd groups with 30-06 cartridges. The cooling towel won't stay on that barrel and it gets pretty hot after just 5 rounds. And my shoulder wouldn't like it either.

My beater Savage 111 is looking like a 1.5 to 2.5 MOA rifle with 5 round groups. I imagine those groups would be much larger if I attempted 20rnd groups.