Education

[RicInOR]

When I hear that almost all Freshmen at Universities need to take remedial courses ...
I know the education system has failed. More than that, our society, our culture has changed to make that acceptable - not just tolerated, but acceptable.

I think a lot of this comes from making it OK to get a participation trophy. To allowing the students to feel good about the work they turned in.

From training up Discipline - to be a man (or whatever sexist word you want) to training up Selfishness.
From being Self Reliant to being Entitled.
From being Generous to being a Taker.

It is going to get worse. Take a gander across the pond. Most of us have genealogical roots in Europe. What is going on there?

 

[Martini_Up]

Please.... check out Oregon graduation rates. Most high school students need remedial math and English. High school graduates are prepared to make a living as baristas or burger flippers. There is no way an student can currently graduate from high school and make any kind of wage. Impossible.

The idea of a tech degree or certificate is a good idea, but in reality, those types of jobs have been in decline for the last 10 years. You either are going to have a minimum bachelors degree, journeyman trades certification, and even that may not get you 50K a year. The mid range tech type jobs in the 40K to 60K have all been eliminated. You are either going to work for 80K plus or under 36K. I just spent 5 days in the Southern Oregon / NorCal area and I always check out the real estate and job postings. Pretty pathetic what they pay in those areas. No wonder the economies suck so bad.

As far as free college ??? Complete bullshi*. I paid for every bit of my college education, 3 years at OSU, and 3 years of night school at PCC. Never a dimes worth of college loan debt. Just short of a Bachelors degree in Ag Engineering and an associates in Business Administration.

Want a "free" college education ?? Do what my boys did...join the military, do your 4 years, let some rag head son of a botch shoot at you, and come home intact. The VA will pay for your college education then. 1 Bachelors degree, 1 journeyman plumber, and 1 firefighter paramedic.

They fing earned it. Novel idea I know .

Sound like you agree with the current administration then and college is needed for more than flipping burgers. The only thing you disagree with is how it's paid for.

I say our k-12 is failing and that is where the focus need to be.

So be it.

When my own kids come home from public school, I'm supplementing their education. My current high school junior is getting college credits from her advanced classes she takes at high school. She will be a college sophomore when she is handed her high school diploma.

My contention is that if k-12 / diploma were held to higher standards along with the educators being held to higher standards of educating (and firing those who can't educate!) when you get your diploma, you would have the equivalent of an associates degree / 2 years of college.

Continue to ignore the k-12 system then employers will continue to require ever greater degrees / years of education for employment.

Where does it stop? Fix the problem (poor k-12 system), not the symptom (uneducated diploma holders)

 

[CoastRange57]

Sound like you agree with the current administration then and college is needed for more than flipping burgers. The only thing you disagree with is how it's paid for.

I say our k-12 is failing and that is where the focus need to be.

So be it.

When my own kids come home from public school, I'm supplementing their education. My current high school junior is getting college credits from her advanced classes she takes at high school. She will be a college sophomore when she is handed her high school diploma.

My contention is that if k-12 / diploma were held to higher standards along with the educators being held to higher standards of educating (and firing those who can't educate!) when you get your diploma, you would have the equivalent of an associates degree / 2 years of college.

Continue to ignore the k-12 system then employers will continue to require ever greater degrees / years of education for employment.

Where does it stop? Fix the problem (poor k-12 system), not the symptom (uneducated diploma holders)

Sounds like I agree with the current administration ?? Stretching it there a bit. Most Federal education mandates are unfunded mandates, and are merely window dressing and pandering to the educational vote. I have advocated for some level of post secondary training for over 20 years. To me it has become much more important in the last 13 years has I have watched my children move through the college and vocational training process, and as I now watch my grand children start that journey.

There was a time when our economy could support manufacturing jobs and production jobs requiring very little in the way of post secondary education. Many a young man went to work pulling chain at the lumber mill and supported a family. A good friend went to work as an oiler at about 28 years old, and is now the manager of a mill making 150K a year. He is truly the exception. The time of this happening is gone in our economies.

Your contention that K-12 is failing is entirely true. It has been failing for a long time. When a school district budget's budget is 87% or higher in labor expense, mostly for certified teaching staff, and we have the poor test results and graduation rates, the focus is on trying to deliver services at the lowest possible cost. How many business's of any kind are successful with a labor percentage that high ??

The fact you are assisting your kids education shows you know what it takes to get them by. We worked with ours, we hired tutors, we pushed them hard. All of them participated in vocational or community college programs while in high school. 4 of 5 needed remedial math and English. That is the fault of the lower level grades.

Holding teachers accountable will never happen. A great idea, and one that holds well in private industry, but the power of the educational unions assures that even barely qualified teachers will retain their positions for their careers. Firing based upon performance will not happen. Moral or criminal actions are pretty much required for firing a teacher.

Correcting the poor performance of our public schools has been a hot topic for the 20 some years I have been involved in public education, from appointed and elected positions, from volunteering in schools. I expect it to be a continuing topic for the next 20 years with little change.

My two grandsons started kindergarten this year. One of them is attending private Catholic school and the other public school. My daughter feels private school from K 8 is the best way to go, and she can afford to send them. The other child is going to public school. They are of comparable intelligence and skill levels. The one at the private school is far ahead of the other..he can recite the Pledge of Allegiance, he can tell analog time, he can tie his shoes, he can read at a late first grade level. H attends school at least 3 more days per month than the other. I have volunteered in both schools and can truly say the learning environment is much better in the private school.

The teachers are fairly compensated, although they do not have the huge PERS retirements and full family health care plans the public teachers have. It is 180 students K8. I volunteer with maintenance needs, there are several others who do as well.

In our state public education is facing a major implosion in the next 10 years. The unfunded liabilities in the PERS system assures that district contribution amounts will continue to rise, and before long, labor burden, retirement benefits, and health care will be a multiple of 2 times salary. Most private companies need to contain that multiple to 1.37 or less. More money to fund those liabilities will take more money away from classrooms, and you will see 35 or more student K8, and 48 to 55, 9-12 classes.

The unions will continue to throw the young new hires under the bus, to preserve the jobs of the senior piss poor performing teaches. Same story as the last 30 years.

 

[clearconscience]

Well maybe it's another way for obummer to funnel money to his buddies

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/1...al-nation-islam-rep-to-school-board-position/

 

[Just Jim]

Well maybe it's another way for obummer to funnel money to his buddies

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/1...al-nation-islam-rep-to-school-board-position/

Suspect he is doing this for the illegals.

 

[RicInOR]

<broken link removed>
"
Hope Johnson and David Whelan divide their weeks between courses at Central Piedmont Community College and the factory floor at Siemens USA in Charlotte, North Carolina, where they're enrolled in high-tech, European-style apprenticeships manufacturing gas and steam turbines for power plants.

Johnson, 20, and Whelan, 18, are gaining more than just experience. Once they've completed their apprenticeships, they'll each have an associates degree in mechatronics – paid for by Siemens – and a full-time job at Siemens making about $55,000 a year – well above theaverage salary for similarly educated young adults."

 

[IheartSig]

I went to school by way of the military. They paid for part of the bill any way. Even with the GI bill and some grants I still had to work pretty much full time to afford a place to live, food to eat and some pocket change. That was WITH two years at a CC before finishing at UofO. The tuition at UofO was not a reality for me for two years let alone 4.

I agree that education across the board needs to be better and more accessible in this country. Not free though. Not a damn thing I have in my life that means something to me, came to me free. I believe a person should have to work for the things they want. It weeds out the lazy and inept. The dedicated should be rewarded.

I'd like to see more technical / trade schools and programs that lead to apprenticeships and such. I'd also like people who might not otherwise financially be able to afford school do some time in the military or equal method of civil service to earn it rather than burry themselves in loans.

 

[IheartSig]

When I hear that almost all Freshmen at Universities need to take remedial courses ...
I know the education system has failed

My perspective on that issue is this. Or at least this is what put me into one of my first ever full on adult tantrums.

When I got out of the Marines and got readjusted to being out, I enrolled in college. I KNEW the first couple of years would be hard. I wasn't a straight A student in high school, add to that I had been in the Corps for 4 years as well. I knew it would be hard, but I also knew I could do it if I worked at it.

I take my placement exam, and wouldn't you know it they want (read: don't give me a choice) me to start in a lower level math class. That put me 3 classes behind every other "normal" student in terms of classes needed as pre requisites. I asked the counselor, "why do I have to pay for these classes? I have to pay for the others too....it's my money, if I fail and have to retake them, that's on me, not you.....why don't you let me try"?

It made me absolutely furious that I was in a place of higher education, that felt I was old enough to give them my money but not old enough to allow me to make decisions on what classes I was competent to sit through. I'm paying you right? Let ME worry about passing the class IM paying you to teach me.


It's a massive scam.

 

[Stomper]

BINGO right there... WTF is the customer, and WHO works for WHO, afterall?!

 

[BoonDocks36]

My perspective on that issue is this.
I knew it would be hard, but I also knew I could do it if I worked at it.

Sig Lover... You were Light Years ahead of any college entrant out if High School, having~survived~ your Military Experiance!!!!

I take my placement exam, and wouldn't you know it they want (read: don't give me a choice) me to start in a lower level math class. That put me 3 classes behind every other "normal" student in terms of classes needed as pre requisites.

They think in a Box, with an Earth Friendly "Dim What Bulb"!!!!! So cut them some slack, cause you can not Korrect Them, they are ~Wright~ you "No"... (MissAppropriate & illLogical Werds used for Examplulz, of modern EdjeKation at Werk)!!!!

I asked the counselor, "why do I have to pay for these classes? I have to pay for the others too....it's my money, if I fail and have to retake them, that's on me, not you.....why don't you let me try"?

Legally, you have the Right to challenge Any & Every CLASS!!! IOW, if you were getting a Master's Degree, in UnderWater Basket Weaving, and by TheroMagical Process Knew that topic, you have the RIGHT to Challeng the tests for the subject and obtain such a degree, Without Ever doing a single class!!!!

It made me absolutely furious that I was in a place of higher education, that felt I was old enough to give them my money but not old enough to allow me to make decisions on what classes I was competent to sit through. I'm paying you right? Let ME worry about passing the class IM paying you to teach me.


It's a massive scam.

 

[IheartSig]

Legally, you have the Right to challenge Any & Every CLASS!!! IOW, if you were getting a Master's Degree, in UnderWater Basket Weaving, and by TheroMagical Process Knew that topic, you have the RIGHT to Challeng the tests for the subject and obtain such a degree, Without Ever doing a single class!!!!

Yeah, she offered me that option. I said "Ma'am, clearly this isn't my best subject, I'm aware of that, if I couldn't pass your placement exam, what makes you think I can challenge the course? I am just asking for a shot at the class, that's a semester of class that I will have to work at, but I can catch up and keep up if I have a chance, I'm no stranger to work, I can make it happen"

They wouldn't even consider it. Without that math class I couldn't get into the science classes I needed etc etc. basically They were milking me for 3 classes instead of just the one I would normally have to take. When your working night shift, going to school all day and trying to keep your head above water paying for and devoting time to three more classes is quite a hit.

In the end I won though because I ended up sitting in the back of the math class for free for a half hour every other day when I had time. The instructor was a Vietnam Vet and I explained the situation. He even helped me by answering questions after class and giving me some tests here and there to do. I ended retaking the test a semester later and scored into the one math class I actully needed.

That professor helped me more than he knew. I was so dissalusioned with the whole thing I almost just said "to hell with it" and went back into the Marines. I got him a bottle of Jameson for his help he seemed appreciative