D. Wilson Manufacturing (AKA the AR Bolt Guru)

[308]

Where ? I searched didn't see any contact info, other then the form which is worthless( not just yours , any websites).
Could not find email, phone number, address. Any website that didn't have this info is suspect.

It took me two seconds to see the little envelope icon on the upper right of the screen.

Edited to add: His linkedin profile is adjacent to his email.

Don't know why we have a tendency to eat our own nowadays.

 

[John H]

And as far as "BCG Guru" its simply what it says on his AR15.com profile.

Well if he is that, then maybe he can explain why 9310 instead of C158, is it just cost? If not lets get down to technical terms and understanding.

 

[IronMonster]

Well I can't speak for why you would choose 9310, However there are a lot of reasons not to use Carpender 158. It's a relatively expensive proprietary alloy only made by Carpender. It's 50-year-old metallurgy and the only reason why that alloy still exists is because it was chosen as a mill spec standard. The mill spec monkeys all talk about c158 like it's the ultimate and everything else is a compromise. That's simply not true it's a pretty boring mid grade steel. It's only defining attribute is it's what's on the spec sheet for govenment guns. If you truely wanted a performance steel C158 would not even be a consideration.

I am make my living as a blacksmith, I manufacture a line of tools. I buy many tons of alloy and tool steel a year. Am I an expert on C158? Nope, but I can look at the spec's and plainly see it's nothing special.

 

[John H]

Am I an expert on C158? Nope, but I can look at the spec's and plainly see it's nothing special.

But it has proven itself over and over again that it works.

 

[IronMonster]

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=101&E=100

Actually C158 bolts fail on a regular basis. I think you will find bolt life in a harsh environment to be something on the order of 5-10k rounds and something like half of them will fail in this range.

Seems to me I read someplace that the govenment considers 5000 rds to be the useful life of the bolt.

When I get home I'll have to see if I can find the story but they recently ran a S7 SRC bolt for something like 80,000 rds without failure. (That could be wrong, but that's what I remember)

 

[IronMonster]

And I am not saying there is anything wrong with C158. It has proven itself and is perfectly adequate for making a bolt out of. I'm just saying it has no magical qualitys that make it the best.

 

[unclemoak]

Well if he is that, then maybe he can explain why 9310 instead of C158, is it just cost? If not lets get down to technical terms and understanding.

John, I'm not sure if you have a chip on your shoulder or some underlying anger issues. I'm simply just trying to share some information about what I know.

In regards to my contact information, I generally do business on my personal cell phone and actually have a 9-5 day job. About 90% of my business (which is whole sale, so 100-1000+ bcgs at a time) is talking to less than 10 people, which has been working quite for the last couple of years.

Sure, I could post my number or address, but honestly it's not worth the hassle of my phone ringing at all hours of the day. If people want to get a hold of me, they are welcome to use the contact form on my site ( I monitor the email all day) and I'll get back to them typically within 1-2 hours, but some days it's more because I do have somewhat of a life. This seems to work for me so far. Sure, I might lose a few customers along the way, but that's part of business and a decision I've accepted as the owner.

 

[unclemoak]

But it has proven itself over and over again that it works.

As IronMonster has done a great job at describing, 9310 has better mechanical properties and it's more economical to both purchase and machine. Simple as that.

It's to be expected that parts are going to fail, it's inevitable. I've found that bolt failure is more linked to how it's manufactured than what it's manufactured from. The biggest example being how the cam pin stops in the bolt are formed. Machining the stops in the bolt, as I do, seems to induce less stress concentrations into the bolt as would happen with stamping/press the stops into the bolt.

 

[unclemoak]

Well that's good to know, I get intimidated by super hero's

I know you didn't come to get picked at so I'm not picking but I am curious about your opinion on something

I know the main drivers for using 9310. I am not opposed to 9310, done right . I have been burned bad by 9310 done wrong

Can you "generally" describe the hardening process the 9310 is going through?
I know it has a narrower temperature window than c158 and as I understand it matters when its done when using QPQ for a finish

thanks for your time, and hey you already have a better Like per Post ratio than you friend who came and told on us for smack talking your BCG, which you have to admit none of us were wrong.......no worries

I'm curious about your burned bad comment. Did you have a catastrophic bolt failure? KB's are no joke, that's what I'm curious about the extent of your burning.


As for the heat treat of 9310, yes it is a little more sensitive and process dependent than C158. But in terms of heat treating we're talking elementary vs middle school level advancements and with digital controls on modern heat treat ovens, it's practically child's play.

H&M Metal Processing actually has a really good pictogram of their QPQ process, which is quite similar to a heat treat cycle, but at much lower temperatures so it has no affect on the heat treat.

 

[oli700]

thanks for the time your taking here, in my experience 9130 is great done right. I am running one right now that has QPQ and its been stellar......I also ran one that wasn't treated right and this is what it liked like after 200 rounds, I wouldn't say it is catastrophic by any means but it was going there in a hurry, unacceptable to have galling like that after 200 rounds









I vowed never to stray from C158 again, since then I have learned that 9310 CAN be superior but its got to hit that narrow window


Thanks for the explanations , I know a little about it, I was a barrel maker on old deep hole drills button rifler and air driven contour lathes so I don't have any experience with new digital heat treating ovens ......still with all that available it can be done wrong

last one and I'll leave you alone

What's your take on the MPI HP testing and how much stock do you put in it at your place ?

 

[oli700]

Told on you? I figured the guy had a right to respond to your accusations and defend himself. And as far as "BCG Guru" its simply what it says on his AR15.com profile.

<broken link removed>

Im not making stuff up as I go along here....

fair enough but I wasn't point my finger at anything that was needing defending, I pointed at the truth of the matter......still though been a real stand up guy and taking time out of busy schedules to interact with a perspective customer base says a lot about his character

 

[unclemoak]

thanks for the time your taking here, in my experience 9130 is great done right. I am running one right now that has QPQ and its been stellar......I also ran one that wasn't treated right and this is what it liked like after 200 rounds, I wouldn't say it is catastrophic by any means but it was going there in a hurry, unacceptable to have galling like that after 200 rounds









I vowed never to stray from C158 again, since then I have learned that 9310 CAN be superior but its got to hit that narrow window


Thanks for the explanations , I know a little about it, I was a barrel maker on old deep hole drills button rifler and air driven contour lathes so I don't have any experience with new digital heat treating ovens ......still with all that available it can be done wrong

last one and I'll leave you alone

What's your take on the MPI HP testing and how much stock do you put in it at your place ?

Looking at your bolt, I'd almost guess it was the barrel extension or clocking of the bolt lugs was the issue, not heat treat. If I'm remembering correctly, barrel extensions are made from 4140, which is pretty tough and could have easily chewed up your bolt if it wasn't broached quite right.


With MPI/HP testing it's a mixed bag. Some people I sell to require it, some don't, and some don't want to pay for it. The most common failure point as I mentioned before is the cam pin around on the tail of the bolt. As I mentioned, some companies stamp/press in the cam pin stops causing stresses to concentrate in that area, making it a candidate for MPI testing.


One thing I always like to say to put things into perspective is that MPI testing is rarely done one every part and is often done by a close to minimum wage employee. You don't have degreed metallurgists sitting around MPIing bolts all day long.

The moral of the story is parts break, it happens. The AR15 is a 50-60 year old idea; designs, metallurgy, and manufacturing best practices have come a long way since then.

 

[Flopsweat]

Looking at your bolt, I'd almost guess it was the barrel extension or clocking of the bolt lugs was the issue, not heat treat. If I'm remembering correctly, barrel extensions are made from 4140, which is pretty tough and could have easily chewed up your bolt if it wasn't broached quite right.


With MPI/HP testing it's a mixed bag. Some people I sell to require it, some don't, and some don't want to pay for it. The most common failure point as I mentioned before is the cam pin around on the tail of the bolt. As I mentioned, some companies stamp/press in the cam pin stops causing stresses to concentrate in that area, making it a candidate for MPI testing.


One thing I always like to say to put things into perspective is that MPI testing is rarely done one every part and is often done by a close to minimum wage employee. You don't have degreed metallurgists sitting around MPIing bolts all day long.

The moral of the story is parts break, it happens. The AR15 is a 50-60 year old idea; designs, metallurgy, and manufacturing best practices have come a long way since then.

Thanks for all of the insight - it's been fascinating. Hope you stick around.

 

[oli700]

Looking at your bolt, I'd almost guess it was the barrel extension or clocking of the bolt lugs was the issue, not heat treat. If I'm remembering correctly, barrel extensions are made from 4140, which is pretty tough and could have easily chewed up your bolt if it wasn't broached quite right.


With MPI/HP testing it's a mixed bag. Some people I sell to require it, some don't, and some don't want to pay for it. The most common failure point as I mentioned before is the cam pin around on the tail of the bolt. As I mentioned, some companies stamp/press in the cam pin stops causing stresses to concentrate in that area, making it a candidate for MPI testing.


One thing I always like to say to put things into perspective is that MPI testing is rarely done one every part and is often done by a close to minimum wage employee. You don't have degreed metallurgists sitting around MPIing bolts all day long.

The moral of the story is parts break, it happens. The AR15 is a 50-60 year old idea; designs, metallurgy, and manufacturing best practices have come a long way since then.

hey its been a pleasure, the platform and history of it is a bit of a passion of mine .

that barrel extension has had other bolts in it and been fine, running a Seekins 9310 in it now has a few thousand on it.

I suspected no heat treat till I learned a improper heat treat might as well be none....

anyway, I have about 37 questions I'd like to ask but I know your busy so thanks for answering what you have , validated a lot of my beliefs

 

[IronMonster]

I got my spares in the mail today



Here are some thoughts and pictures. (click on them and they get big!)



There is the Wilson bolt, Aero bolt and Aims bolt side by side in that order

















Here is the Wilson and Aero extractor parts removed from the bolt.







Here is the Wilson extractor installed on the Aero bolt. Seems Skookum







A close up to show quality of machine work and over all appearance Wilson on the right













Ok first off, The D. Wilson bolt is purdy, the finish is finer and over all looks to be a superior bit. I would guess the extractor on both the Aero and Aim's bolts are forged and the Wilson machined. Really the Wilson looks like a higher quality bit.



So.... I put the new Wilson bolt in the Aero carrier and ran it in into the barrel extension. It wanted to stick, I had to pop it a few times in and out to get it to come out of the gun. It had some oil on it and it never locked up but it was not nice and smooth. I checked headspace, It would not close on the No Go, It did close on the go but just barely, I actually had to pop the back of the carrier pretty hard to get it into battery and then I had to tap on it with a brass punch to get it to unlock and come out. After that I tried just cycling it several times and the bolt wants to hang up. It never got stuck, but a time or two I thought it might. Worst one it took maybe a few minutes of gentile tapping with a brass punch before it came lose.



I actually expect that that its just an exceptional fit, I think a few hundred rounds through the thing and it would be better than either of the others just based on the quality of the machine work.





The only way shipping could have been faster is if they where teleported to my mailbox. All the spares look top notch. I ordered the master kit as well as a complete spare bolt and there is nothing even questionable, everything looks top tier super wazzu skookum

 

[John H]

It wanted to stick, I had to pop it a few times in and out to get it to come out of the gun. It had some oil on it and it never locked up but it was not nice and smooth. I checked headspace, It would not close on the No Go, It did close on the go but just barely, I actually had to pop the back of the carrier pretty hard to get it into battery and then I had to tap on it with a brass punch to get it to unlock and come out. After that I tried just cycling it several times and the bolt wants to hang up. It never got stuck, but a time or two I thought it might. Worst one it took maybe a few minutes of gentile tapping with a brass punch before it came lose.
I actually expect that that its just an exceptional fit, I think a few hundred rounds through the thing and it would be better than either of the others just based on the quality of the machine work.

That is BS, a part should work.

If this is typical , not sure why you are still praising it, just cause it looks pretty doesn't mean it is good.

 

[oli700]

got to say I have to agree, should be butter out of the box......keep us updated

 

[IheartSig]

That is BS, a part should work.

If this is typical , not sure why you are still praising it, just cause it looks pretty doesn't mean it is good.

Not sure why you have gone out of your way numerous times in this thread to be so negative. Iron Monster was posting about a product he found and seemed like quality. The manufacturer shows up to answer questions and you still carry on with your negativity. Iron Monster posts an honest review of the part he tried after receiving it, going so far as to point out flaws and issues he noticed and you still manage to berate him. What's your issue man? If you don't like it skip it.

 

[John H]

Why praise a part that doesn't work??

Not being negative, just being real.

 

[IheartSig]

Never Trust a website that doesn't have contact info.

I was inspecting more pics, definitely looks like piss poor machining on the bolt lugs.

The front of the carrier is different. How many different ways can you describe a BCG.

Where ? I searched didn't see any contact info, other then the form which is worthless( not just yours , any websites).

Could not find email, phone number, address. Any website that didn't have this info is suspect.

OK , I did find in the upper right hand this tiny little envelope, which doesn't work if you don't a have a email client install on your computer.( who does that anymore, this isn't the 90's). Why not just list it?

That is BS, a part should work.

If this is typical , not sure why you are still praising it, just cause it looks pretty doesn't mean it is good.

Why praise a part that doesn't work??

Not being negative, just being real.

Yeah man... you're a real ray of sunshine alright.