Co-witness a red dot on a pistol?

[benchmark]

I know there are two options for the co-witness set up. The question i have is if you think it is necessary to have when you have your barrel milled for a red dot? Do we really need it to date based on tech advancements with them? Having one installed, should i dump the money and have them do it or no?

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[L84Cabo]

If the pistol is going to be used for defense, you absolutely need backup iron sights. Whether or not you co-witness them is up to you. If it's just a range toy, then you can skip the irons if you want.

But with that said...and forgive me as I don't know your experience level with red dots on pistols...but there is a decent learning curve with red dots on pistols. Picking up the dot immediately on the draw does not come easy for most people. It takes some time and training. And most people will first align their iron sights in an effort to help locate the dot...and then transition to the dot as soon as they identify it in the viewfinder.

Personally, I would not have wanted to learn to use the red dot without iron sights. YMMV.

 

[Dornai]

Short answer: yes, co-witness irons with red dot on a pistol.

 

[benchmark]

So then full or 1/3 witness on pistol? Give me the down low. Thanks

 

[B5Ben]

I am looking to do this as well on my G21. Looking to add suppressor sights for co-witness over the can.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Batteries die, and electronics fail, but it takes an awful lot of force to damage good iron sights.

With rifles, it's a bit easier to pick a good setup due to the prevalence of QD mounts and flip-up sights. Lower 1/3 is usually better for fixed sights, but I prefer absolute co-witness for flip-up sights.

For a handgun, I prefer something closer to lower 1/3, though I'm still new to the red dot scene and don't have much experience with them yet; mostly dry fire practice.

An RMR window is already small enough as it is, and I want as unobstructed of a view as possible. My iron sights are in the very bottom of the window, which I feel is perfect for me. They are there if I need them, but they are not in the way when I don't.



I'm also not a big fan of ridiculously tall suppressor-height sights, so I tried to keep everything as low as possible. If you are using a Glock MOS with adapter plate, you'll have to use slightly taller sights than I did, as the RMR sits higher than if you were to have the slide directly milled for it.

On the other hand, if you're just looking to put a red dot on a .22 for plinking or Bullseye competitions, I wouldn't worry about the iron sights much at all, other than making sure they are sighted in properly.

 

[B5Ben]

Which model RMR is that? Looks like the 3.25 MOA but wanted to confirm.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Correct. RM06, 3.25 MOA.

Another good option is the ALG 6 Second Mount with an Aimpoint T1 or equivalent micro red dot. (Not my photos; shamelessly stolen from the internet.)

 

[B5Ben]

ALSo are the reat sights behind or in front of the RMR?

 

[Quartermaster]

when you have your barrel milled for a red dot?

When you have your what milled?

So then full or 1/3 witness on pistol? Give me the down low. Thanks

Do you mean absolute, and lower 1/3rd? Those are terms for rifle optics. I think maybe this hobby is ill-suited.

 

[benchmark]

ALSo are the reat sights behind or in front of the RMR?

I have heard the sights are best placed forward of the red dot. This set-up would then need the suppressor sights....Well, I guess with my limited knowledge and understanding on this I will wait on the adding the suppressor sights until I am able to rent a Sig P320 RX with the absolute co-witness. I was leaning on just going that route since the guns that did come out with the red dots pre-installed all come that way and not the 1/3rd. Everything I read, regarding pistol red dot set-ups (not rifle) come back recommending the 1/3, dunno. Thanks.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

ALSo are the reat sights behind or in front of the RMR?

Behind. Rear sight is in the original dovetail, and the RMR is directly in front of it.

Yes. I know what it is and it's now popular with pistols as well. Catch up.

If you're having the barrel milled for an RMR, make sure you have the proper length screws so they don't obstruct the path of the bullet...

 

[benchmark]

Batteries die, and electronics fail, but it takes an awful lot of force to damage good iron sights.

With rifles, it's a bit easier to pick a good setup due to the prevalence of QD mounts and flip-up sights. Lower 1/3 is usually better for fixed sights, but I prefer absolute cowitness for flip-up sights.

For a handgun, I prefer something closer to lower 1/3, though I'm still new to the red dot scene and don't have much experience with them yet; mostly dry fire practice.

An RMR window is already small enough as it is, and I want as unobstructed of a view as possible. My iron sights are in the very bottom of the window, which I feel is perfect for me. They are there if I need them, but they are not in the way when I don't.

View attachment 438345

I'm also not a big fan of ridiculously tall suppressor-height sights, so I tried to keep everything as low as possible. If you are using a Glock MOS with adapter plate, you'll have to use slightly taller sights than I did, as the RMR sits higher than if you were to have the slide directly milled for it.

On the other hand, if you're just looking to put a red dot on a .22 for plinking or Bullseye competitions, I wouldn't worry about the iron sights much at all, other than making sure they are sighted in properly.

Thanks for this picture. I am leaning toward your absolute set-up that you have here. My thought is I get the best of both worlds. I have the easier to see red dot lined up with my irons. It does not appear to be that busy. It almost seems like there would be more issues with the 1/3rd set-up because out of habit your chasing the front irons. So the only reason to go 1/3rd then is to have more view in the optic and to god for bid you lost power on the red you can then adjust your view using the irons?

 

[benchmark]

Short answer: yes, co-witness irons with red dot on a pistol.

I like the straight forward answer, give me your take on whether to go 1/3rd or absolute? I dont have a buddy with the 1/3rd set-up so I can borrow one and I have never been able to find one like that to rent. Ugh.

 

[41mag]

I've discovered far better POA/POI from my use of the Sig P320RX in such as speed steel match.

I've also discovered how faltering & variable my own notion of 'sight alignment' really was in timed range events, prior to the 320RX.

At the minimum consult their spacial relationships as a beginning point for your own decisions on how to outfit your own version.

 

[Quartermaster]

Yes. I know what it is and it's now popular with pistols as well. Catch up.

I know it's popular to misquote and misidentify things in the firearm world. Every day I hear the word "clips," and it's absolutely mind-numbing. "Full cowitness" doesn't mean anything.

 

[benchmark]

I know it's popular to misquote and misidentify things in the firearm world. Every day I hear the word "clips," and it's absolutely mind-numbing. "Full cowitness" doesn't mean anything.

View attachment 438425

Ok, I'll be nice and stop with this dialogue with you Quartermaster. BUT, your feedback was meaningless to begin with. First, In the subject line it identified the question to be in regards to a pistol. It would not matter what kind of pistol.

Second, your comment wanting to clarify the name/way I called out the co-witness options is silly. You funny.

Most importantly you provided absolutely no information regarding this topic whatsoever. "Volunteer" an answer or just read and move on.

Later all and thanks for those that contributed or volunteered information that was beneficial to the question and not a critic.

Cheers!

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Thanks for this picture. I am leaning toward your absolute set-up that you have here. My thought is I get the best of both worlds. I have the easier to see red dot lined up with my irons. It does not appear to be that busy. It almost seems like there would be more issues with the 1/3rd set-up because out of habit your chasing the front irons. So the only reason to go 1/3rd then is to have more view in the optic and to god for bid you lost power on the red you can then adjust your view using the irons?

You've got your terminology mixed up.

I would best describe my sight picture as a "lower 1/3 co-witness", even though that's not 100% accurate. During a normal sight picture, the dot is in the middle of the window, and the iron sights remain at the bottom. This provides for a more unobstructed view.

The dot does not co-witness with the sights until I aim using the iron sights, which brings the dot down into the "lower 1/3" to match the iron sights. In my earlier photo, notice how much lower the dot is in the window compared to the above photo. This is what most would refer to as "lower 1/3 co-witness".

For an "absolute co-witness", the iron sights and the dot would both line up in the middle of the window. This would require much taller sights, or finding a way to lower the red dot mount further. I'm not sure if anyone even makes an "absolute co-witness" for pistols, due to the limitations on sight height and optics mounting.

As Oregon Quartermaster has said, these two terms are generally used in regards to rifle sights and optics, though I feel they are close enough to convey the intended message with handguns.

 

[308]

This is Mrs308s CZ P09 CGW/w Deltapoint Pro and suppressor height cowitnessed iron sights.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Ok, I'll be nice and stop with this dialogue with you Quartermaster. BUT, your feedback was meaningless to begin with. First, In the subject line it identified the question to be in regards to a pistol. It would not matter what kind of pistol.

Second, your comment wanting to clarify the name/way I called out the co-witness options is silly. You funny.

Most importantly you provided absolutely no information regarding this topic whatsoever. "Volunteer" an answer or just read and move on.

Later all and thanks for those that contributed or volunteered information that was beneficial to the question and not a critic.

Cheers!

In defense of Oregon Quartermaster, I completely understand where he's coming from.

Words have meanings, and I believe that people should say what they mean and mean what they say.

You mentioned having the "barrel" machined, when what you really meant was the "slide". You referred to "true co-witness", when what you meant to say was "absolute co-witness".

All industries have their own lingo and jargon. Sometimes a minor misunderstanding can make for a huge mistake. Think about all of the specific terms used in engineering, machining, law, and medicine. Some terms must be exact, so that everyone is clear on the exact meaning and intent.

If you notice someone consistantly using a different term than you, or having trouble understanding what you are trying to convey, sometimes it's worth taking the time to make sure you are using the correct terminology in the correct context.

Sorry for the long sermon, but I wanted to at least offer an outside viewpoint on the issue.

Thus endeth the lesson...