Center of Mass Myth's

[cw009]

One of the worst feelings in a gunfight is seeing your slide locked open and not knowing if the battle is over. If you have more rounds that is one thing and can fix the situation real quick. Quick enough? Hopefully! I think if you are in a situation where you can reload before that happens then I say do it. It is always better to have as many rounds as possible for immediate use.

Assuming that you won't have that opportunity is not an assumption to make in my opinion. You can never assume anything will happen a certain way in a gunfight.

I agree on training for consistency as a good idea but I also know that in a real gunfight if you are a fighter you will find a way to win. You don't care what weapon you have or whatever. It becomes an extension of your body whether you have never seen or used the weapon in your life or it's one you had since you were a kid. Do you think a man on the battlefield thinks twice about picking up an enemies weapon and using it just like his own if under dire need?

A real life and death situation is exactly that. Some do rise to the occasion and some do not but I think that is more of a mindset than anything else. Something that maybe can't be taught at least not easily. Many think they have the mindset and some know they have it.

 

[JRV]

One of the worst feelings in a gunfight is seeing your slide locked open and not knowing if the battle is over. If you have more rounds that is one thing and can fix the situation real quick. Quick enough? Hopefully! I think if you are in a situation where you can reload before that happens then I say do it. It is always better to have as many rounds as possible for immediate use.

Assuming that you won't have that opportunity is not an assumption to make in my opinion. You can never assume anything will happen a certain way in a gunfight.

I agree on training for consistency as a good idea but I also know that in a real gunfight if you are a fighter you will find a way to win. You don't care what weapon you have or whatever. It becomes an extension of your body whether you have never seen or used the weapon in your life or it's one you had since you were a kid. Do you think a man on the battlefield thinks twice about picking up an enemies weapon and using it just like his own if under dire need?

A real life and death situation is exactly that. Some do rise to the occasion and some do not but I think that is more of a mindset than anything else. Something that maybe can't be taught at least not easily. Many think they have the mindset and some know they have it.

Think you missed the point on consistency or misunderstood the context I used it in.

As far as training and shooting to slide lock. Like I stated the exceptions to your training should be easy. Pretty easy to do an admin reload (tactical) not so easy to magically learn in the middle of a fight to do a critical incident reload from slide lock if you spend all or ANY of your time doing admin reloads.

Admin reload=a pretty easy exception to how I train and how I train people to do a reload from slide lock. I.E WORST CASE scenario.

 

[cw009]

JRV--You know I don't know that I am actually challenging what you said but more making a general statement. Maybe some of both though so maybe you are right

One thing from experience is that you or anybody(myself included) doesn't actually train for everything that can happen in a gunfight. It's just not possible. Do you train a guy to be attacked by some drunken A-hole that shoots you 3 times disabling lower body completely before you even pull your gun? Does it happen in the snow? Is the only shots you have to end the fight not even close to a COM shot but high thigh shots? Femoral artery ouch! See where I am going here? Gunfights aren't perfect by any means. Then how about tending to your wounds for 3-4 hours on your own until help arrives. Then help tells you you had 20 minutes max more to live... This stuff isn't in the training. I will respect the basics to help the masses though. I'm just saying that you cannot say how a gunfight will begin or end. It's not possible. Just get the right mindset and kick some *** if it comes your way. Training is good but saying it will happen some way or another is not realistic(again not attacking you because I just hear it all the time). Maybe I should have started the response about how I know people that say it will happen this way or another. "1-2 shots with the .45 and it's all over". No it is not a perfect world always. BIG PERIOD.

 

[JRV]

JRV--You know I don't know that I am actually challenging what you said but more making a general statement. Maybe some of both though so maybe you are right

One thing from experience is that you or anybody(myself included) doesn't actually train for everything that can happen in a gunfight. It's just not possible. Do you train a guy to be attacked by some drunken A-hole that shoots you 3 times disabling lower body completely before you even pull your gun? Does it happen in the snow? Is the only shots you have to end the fight not even close to a COM shot but high thigh shots? Femoral artery ouch! See where I am going here? Gunfights aren't perfect by any means. Then how about tending to your wounds for 3-4 hours on your own until help arrives. Then help tells you you had 20 minutes max more to live... This stuff isn't in the training. I will respect the basics to help the masses though. I'm just saying that you cannot say how a gunfight will begin or end. It's not possible. Just get the right mindset and kick some *** if it comes your way. Training is good but saying it will happen some way or another is not realistic(again not attacking you because I just here it all the time). Maybe I should have started the response about how I know people that say it will happen this way or another. 1-2 shots with the .45 and it's all over. No it is not a perfect world always. BIG PERIOD.

Real quick. I never said a gun fight is going to happen a certain way. What I said the body is going to do certain things under a threating situations. Bodys natural reactions. Can't out train those they just happen.

As far as training for situations. No one has the time or resources to train for everything possible. You train for what is probable and then what is plausible. We call it the plausibility principle.

As far as everything being COM shot never said that either. The target and situation is going to determine shot placement and the need for precision. What's the point of every round fired? To stop the threat....Nope, it's to significantly affect the threats ability to stop a lethal threat. I'm never going to think one specific shot is going to stop a threat.

People can disagree with me that's fine. I know the program I teach has integrity and empirical evidence to back it up. That's also why there is a 50% failure rate in instructor certification for the program I teach. But what do I know....

 

[cw009]

I guess I am just giving you some more to think about more than attacking what you already teach or think. We are always learning. I'm learning from you. Maybe you learn from me. Maybe not. Maybe overwhelming people with training for extremes is bad but I think it is also not a bad thing to bring up.

I'm not exactly attacking you like it may sound. I have respect for what you are saying. I'm just making some statements more than anything else. The one thing I know about life is nothing is ever guaranteed.

 

[wichaka]

Someone among us here sounds like Rob Pincus.

 

[JRV]

Someone among us here sounds like Rob Pincus.

Maybe because he's kinda my boss and I'm certified to teach his program.

 

[cw009]

lol I just read my comments and I think I repeated the same things 10 times over

Hey JRV that is cool that you are certified and teach I.C.E. Training. I use to watch Rob Pincus every week on the Outdoor Channel and still watch when I get a chance. Interesting guy and show! I am sure it is good training!

 

[JRV]

lol I just read my comments and I think I repeated the same things 10 times over

Hey JRV that is cool that you are certified and teach I.C.E. Training. I use to watch Rob Pinkus every week on the Outdoor Channel and still watch when I get a chance. Interesting guy and show! I am sure it is good training!

Thanks. Just so you know I was reading what you had to share and taking it in. I was just sharing my .02. You never know what we can learn so I always listen and or watch and take it in.

If you're interested in coming out and taking a Combat Focus Shooting course send me a PM and I will send you the dates for some classes in the future.


The range I work at will be hosting a Combat Focus Shooting and Advanced Pistol Handling course June 11, 12, 13th. Rob will be teaching and I will be asst. instructor. We have a few spots open still.

 

[SSG]

Center of Mass = Bigger easier target to hit, under stress, and if moving...

 

[JRV]

Center of Mass = Bigger easier target to hit, under stress, and if moving...

LMAO.....

Well said

 

[wichaka]

All one has to do is read the 2007 SAWT magazine article to get a good feel for Pincus.
I view most store magazines to be not much more than good entertainment, so if one happens to find the above article...you might want to view it as such.

Pincus quote;
"The concept is simple: If there is a shooting and there is a lull in the action, you don't need to move, you don't need to communicate with someone and you don't need to do something else. You do need to have a fully loaded gun."

That's "Range Commando" stuff there. Someone is not teaching the OODA loop very well.

As for not using "Tactical reloads", I'm glad I've been around people who do use them, or some of them may not be here today.

Also, keep a good grip on your gun, if Pincus doesn't like what you're doing, he may throw it across the range.

In Pincus own words;
".....I think it is okay to toss a students gun in the dirt to create a impression about how bad it is to not react to slide lock with something other than "giving up". I can be pretty sure that it made an impression and that the student learned something from it."

It is wise to thoroughly review ones practices and experience before signing up with an instructor/school. Just because they write books and have a knack for marketing themselves, doesn't always mean you're getting the best for your training dollar.

 

[JRV]

All one has to do is read the 2007 SAWT magazine article to get a good feel for Pincus.
I view most store magazines to be not much more than good entertainment, so if one happens to find the above article...you might want to view it as such.

Pincus quote;
"The concept is simple: If there is a shooting and there is a lull in the action, you don't need to move, you don't need to communicate with someone and you don't need to do something else. You do need to have a fully loaded gun."

That's "Range Commando" stuff there. Someone is not teaching the OODA loop very well.

As for not using "Tactical reloads", I'm glad I've been around people who do use them, or some of them may not be here today.

Also, keep a good grip on your gun, if Pincus doesn't like what you're doing, he may throw it across the range.

In Pincus own words;
".....I think it is okay to toss a students gun in the dirt to create a impression about how bad it is to not react to slide lock with something other than "giving up". I can be pretty sure that it made an impression and that the student learned something from it."

It is wise to thoroughly review ones practices and experience before signing up with an instructor/school. Just because they write books and have a knack for marketing themselves, doesn't always mean you're getting the best for your training dollar.

So much for a civilized discussion the bashing begins...DBAC

 

[el gringo loco]

I didn't recognize Pincus by name. However, I now realize who he is. My only impression of him was watching "Best Defense" on the outdoor channel for the first time a few weeks ago. It was my last time watching the show. The premise seemed intriguing, but after watching one of the guys on the show (whom I now know was Pincus) clear a house by himself, rapidly with little regard to potential threats, tell an armed intruder in a residence, at a distance of about 20 feet, without benefit of cover, "drop the weapon!" I concluded that I had nothing to learn from the show. I was not impressed and even told some friends how awful the tactics on that show were.

I am going to have to side with Wichaka's Mr. Myagi methods over Pincus's Cobra Kai attitude.

 

[cw009]

I think I can disagree with about any trainer, article, book, or whatever to some point.

I think there is always a weakness to being trained or trainers training when there is no actual threat involved. Of course we can't do the training under real fire so that is the option. It's hard at least for me to take it deadly serious when standing on the range or whatever. I think the show has its good and bad and is entertaining. I can say that for a lot of things. I doubt his actual training would be a waste of time.

 

[wichaka]

Dbac?

 

[ZeroRing]

I am going to have to side with Wichaka's Mr. Myagi methods over Pincus's Cobra Kai attitude.

(good assessment too)

 

[SSG]

I can't speak with any authority about this Pincus character...but if he threw my gun across the range...#$#$#%#....

Having spent some years in a variety of Martial Arts schools, seminars, etc....I found that there was no shortage of gurus that thought they had a handle on real life and death scenarios...bravado was their calling card, if they were loud enough, vocal enough, many peeps figured that there must be something to what they were saying...I can't tell you how many times I have seen this, but it's usually me at the back of the class going 'well what about this?'...or 'I had this happen to me, so what you said doesn't make sense'

It never fails to amaze that when I talk to some ex-Marine, SWAT, IDPA, gun store, CCW instructors about something as simple as the use of flash lights for instance, that they can't grasp simple concepts that kept tunnel rats in Vietnam alive.

Or the benefits of diving for cover under certain circumstances vs firing on the target, because the circumstances..called for cover...or for firing...

The operative term here is 'rigidity'...and some of these guys have stopped thinking years ago, and feel that a once size fits all method, without thinking is preferable...many go so far as to say that 'thinking during a fight' will get a person killed...so they think it's all about reaction...

Some of these guys are so rigid in their systems...that all gun fights are at 5-7 ft for instance, that anything happening outside of an ATM mugging or a drug deal gone bad, is just beyond their scope. Their whole training system is based around a very narrow set of circumstances...

So I guess that's the benefit of not being a kid anymore...you see some guy say something stupid, something rigid, something that would only work under a very narrow set of circumstances...and rather then argue the point, you just shake your head.

 

[JRV]

It's funny how people will bash someone or wont speak on the persons character they don't know, but bash the training they know nothing or very little about. Go figure....

I have had lead firearms instructors from LE agencies, LE instructors and SWAT guys attend my courses. Some more than once. That sure speaks volumes to me. Guys that have came on there own time and dime to my class, not because they have to go train because the agency says so. Then again these are LEO who actually care about running a gun well and think there is more than just shooting a qualification and they are good.

So feel free to keep bashing something you nothing to very little about. I guess thats why I have had LEO tell me and fellow students in the debrief at the end of class the training they receive is 10, 20, 30 years behind a CFS course. Go figure.

 

[wichaka]

It appears Pincus has bashed himself, he didn't need any help doing that.

Comparing what most LEO's get thru their dept. vs any outside training is comparing apples to oranges...how far is anyone going to get with that line of reasoning?

If all these LEO's got was a Pincus course and dept. training...then the old saying comes to mind...some people don't know, what they don't know.

The avg. LEO gets their quarterly qualification shoot, some less than that in a year...and that's about it. Then some so called guru comes in, shows them things they've never heard or seen before, and the drooling starts. I've seen it way too many times. But avg. LEO doesn't know the difference, as they read the gun rags and rely on dept. training, which in most cases falls way far short as there's no time or money for it.

One needs to slow down and think things thru, is the stuff being taught combat proven...some of Pincus thought processes are far from it.

And if he thinks throwing ones gun across the range is going to get a 'good' impression of his training, he's lucky someone doesn't make an impression on his face.

DBAC?