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Center of Mass Myth's

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Morpheus, Mar 1, 2010.

  1. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

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  2. onearmedswordsman

    onearmedswordsman Hillsboro, OR Member

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    In short, barring a nerve system shoot, blood pressure drops will produce the incapacitation. More/bigger holes, higher the likelihood of producing a rapid blood pressure drop. I like the table:
    * 2-3 hits with a .45
    * 4-6 with a .40
    * 5-8 with a 9mm

    Secondly, avoid getting hit by getting out of the BG line of fire. I like the two step dance.

    good article. thanks for sharing.
     
  3. Harrytop

    Harrytop Tangent Active Member

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    Thanks for the post, just read the article and watched a few of his video's.
    Real good info and in my book the more the merrier.
     
  4. ZeroRing

    ZeroRing 26th District, WA Active Member

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    +1 great post... and definitely makes you think
     
  5. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I would take his table with a grain of salt.

    Anything less that a shot in the snot locker is a toss of the dice as to when they will go down. Some will go down with 1 shot, some won't unless the hard drive is taken out.

    People can fight over a minute with shot(s) thru the heart...and a lot of damage can be inflicted in that amount of time.

    Also, before EVER holstering...ALWAYS check your 6.
     
  6. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like someone trying to sound smart, by writing a really long article that comes down to "Sometimes, one shot doesn't work."

    Neutralize the threat. Don't shoot once and stand there.
     
  7. Griff

    Griff PNW New Member

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    I think most of us can always use more food for thought when it comes to our responsibility of protecting ourselves or our loved ones. We all have our opinions but to ME, what a link like this does is provoke the thought process again and gives me the opportunity to pick something out of it.

    The one thing that really stands out to me is the right handed shooter missing more times to the left than the right, therefore moving to his right increases your odds. Interesting bit for thought!
     
  8. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Only if moving to the right is safe, and you're not moving into a wall.

    If one has to move a certain way to increase their hits, then they are putting a band-aid on something that needs surgery.

    One needs to be able to move either way, adapt to the situation at hand and still get their hits.

    If all one does is stand in one position, practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.

    I find very few shooters who actually gain much if any shooting skills that are needed for the street. Some of the hi-speed/low drag stuff taught at shooting schools looks good on video, but does little for prepping one for actual street use.

    basics...basics...basics
     
  9. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    I don't know about everyone else, but I have no problem hitting center mass, in tactical shooting exercises I have run through, we always train on getting headshots. Besides, isn't the REAL reason we all own firearms, zombies? :dunno:
     
  10. Griff

    Griff PNW New Member

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    Actually maybe I didn't word it correctly or we got something different out of the second video...

    What I was intending to convey was not that moving would increase the chances of getting a hit, but rather improving my odds of NOT being hit. Any tactic, plan or rule of thumb will have to be adapted to the situation and surroundings at hand as it applies.

    Obviously we all are going to get something different from everything read or watched depending on our background, training, or lack thereof. I am still a firm believer that more information is always good... even if you don't agree with it all... sort through it, use what you can and throw the rest in a corner in case you should want to call upon it at some time.
     
  11. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I may have read it wrong.

    Moving is always a good thing.

    Standing and shooting at a target is good for basic skills, but does nothing to improve combat shooting.

    The basics of combat shooting...moving (yourself and/or target), positional shooting, low light, and followup.
     
  12. greydog111

    greydog111 peoples repubilik of Oregon Active Member

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    Shoot till the threat stops. Wheel house, pump room or bellows. All are sure fight stoppers if enough time passes. Sure fire fight winner however, is between the headlights. central nervous system short circuit removes motor activity. I know an officer who was envolved with an drugged out 1%er and fought for his side arm and lost. the b.g. was shot 4 times thru the ticker and continued to scrap it out for 5-8 minutes till he realized he was d.r.t.
    Wheel house!!! best stopper. Greydog, out.
     
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Jefferson County, Wa Member

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    I have always trained to shoot until the threat is no more. That means no two to the chest one to the head drills, or at least nothing so rigid. A good drill is to have a range partner that calls the shot placement on a target.
    Even as a firearms instructor training people on a U. S. Government mandated course of fire preaching center of mass shots I still advised my students use their head and shoot where needs to be shot as many times as possible.
    Just because bad guy falls over does not mean it is over.

    Bruce.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  14. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    I'm not sure if I read this wrong. Moving while shooting most of the time isn't going to make you any safer. The speed in which you shoot while moving is normally slower than if you step off line, plant and shoot. Also the amount of deviation control you give up while moving is most likely going to make the dynamic critical incident last longer. So how is a slow movement, slower shooting and less deviation control making you safer? You could get lucky.

    Luck counts, but you cant count on luck. ~RJP~

    There is a time to move in shoot don't get me wrong, but I think stepping off line (or the X as some people refer to it) and planting and shooting is buying you the time you need to start getting combat accurate hits.

    Are brain and eyes like to track things.(Pursuit characteristics) So when you step offline and plant and shoot. The threat isn't expecting you to stop even if he is tracking you with a gun he is going to have to stop his momentum of a swinging gun and swing back to where you stopped. We may be talking about a 1/4 second your gaining, but how many bullets can come out of Glock in 1/4 second? I'm not sure, but I know it's MORE than ZERO.

    As far as the whole double tap or two then one that was talked about earlier in the post.

    Getting in a habit of shooting a certain number of shots is not a good idea. I have students vary the number rounds they shoot in any given rep of a drill. The reason you dont want to develop a pattern. You want to shoot to the threat stops not shoot a double tap and holster because thats what you have trained. Ever seen the dash cam video where the officer double taps and holsters and the threat isn't down? Why? Because he developed a training scar from double tap and holster.
     
  15. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    This is where practice comes in. One won't get better at anything sitting here in front of the 'puter....me included.

    Practice will get past the "Normally" and "Slow Movement"

    Train at the speed of a gunfight, not at the speed of range time.



    If you're stopping, then planting, then shooting...you're behind the 8 ball. In a perfect world, one may have time for all that, but I haven't seen a perfect gun battle yet. Hope for it, but don't plan on it.

    Watch the IPSC/USPSA people, they shoot on the run. Sometimes they slow down, but they are still moving, and moving well.


    You're betting on something that may or may not happen. A continuous moving target is harder to hit.


    I agree with you here. Which is why we train for the follow through.
    Make sure the adversary is down, check your immediate 180 for anyone else, check your 6, check yourself for injuries, make sure the adversary is still down, reload...never holster a partial empty gun, then holster only when you know the area is safe.
     
  16. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    wichaka:This is where practice comes in. One won't get better at anything sitting here in front of the 'puter....me included.

    Practice will get past the "Normally" and "Slow Movement"

    Train at the speed of a gunfight, not at the speed of range time.

    JRV:
    I disagree. Moving is always going to cause a loss in deviation control and slower shooting.

    wichaka:
    If you're stopping, then planting, then shooting...you're behind the 8 ball. In a perfect world, one may have time for all that, but I haven't seen a perfect gun battle yet. Hope for it, but don't plan on it.

    Watch the IPSC/USPSA people, they shoot on the run. Sometimes they slow down, but they are still moving, and moving well.

    JRV:
    Is a gun fight IPSC/USPSA? It's a game. Are the steel plates or targets shooting back?

    Recognition of a threat (for starters), stepping offline while presenting the firearm, plant, shoot.

    By the time I reach extension I have stepped offline, I am planted and I am shooting.



    wichaka:
    You're betting on something that may or may not happen. A continuous moving target is harder to hit.

    JRV:
    Ever shot a moving target? I would assume you have. How hard is it to track a moving target? NOT hard at all. Now if that target stops abruptly you have to stop your momentum and go back to it. Simple physics my friend.

    wichaka:
    I agree with you here. Which is why we train for the follow through.
    Make sure the adversary is down, check your immediate 180 for anyone else, check your 6, check yourself for injuries, make sure the adversary is still down, reload...never holster a partial empty gun, then holster only when you know the area is safe.[/QUOTE]

    JRV:
    I agree somewhat. Why check your 6? Check left/right CHANGE your 6. I don't agree with the administrative reload. I reload at slide lock, doesn't really take me much time. :)
     
  17. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    When you put time on things, its a game.

    My reference to IPSC/USPSA is to point out shooting on the move only, nothing else. It can be done, and effortlessly if practiced.

    I recommend IPSC/USPSA for a few things; shooting, manipulation skills while moving. You'll find real fast if your equipment is up to snuff. And if the placement is where it needs to be.
    I always recommend one uses their street gear for IPSC/USPSA gaming. Its another repetition with your gear, and every repetition performed correctly is always a good thing.

    As for tracking targets, that depends on the skill of the shooter. Some are better at it than others, this again is where practice comes in.

    Slide lock is a stoppage, best be avoided if possible.

    Checking your 6 is important, to see if anyone is behind or coming up on you.

    If you don't reload after a confrontation, you have no idea how many rounds you have at your disposal. If things heat back up again, would hate to find out that I have my slide locking back after only 1 round.

    The things I teach is information gained from shootings I've been involved in, attending debriefs of shootings others have been involved in, watching countless hours of dash-cam and independent video, as well as interviewing witnesses.

    After all that, I have found a few things to be absolute truth;

    1) The basics are king. Forget about most of the hi-speed low drag stuff, basics is what will keep you alive.

    2) One can do 80+% of the basics without ever firing a shot.

    3) If all one does is stand in one position, practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not
    preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.

    4) No matter how much money you spend on some big name school/instructor...it means very little if you don't keep up with it when
    you return home. No school/instructor/class will ever get you "there" to the level you want to be. They give you things to practice
    on your own, and its up to you to do just that...or all that money you just spent was wasted.
     
  18. el gringo loco

    el gringo loco PDX Member

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    I understand the philosophy of not holstering a gun that is not fully loaded. However, I believe this philosophy was developed with revolvers and older semi-autos in mind. The fact is that if I fire 2 rounds from my Glock 17, I still have 16 rounds available, which is only marginally worse than the 18 I started out with. I personally feel that a tactical reload is not necessarily the best move at that point. I have more than enough rounds available, and I don't have to worry about having a partially used magazine in some random pocket somewhere. My mags are in their carriers or in the gun where I know where they are (and can reach for without looking). Additionally, I don't have that split second where I am not devoting my full attention to the threat and my surroundings. If I am not sure how many rounds I have shot, my gun gets a tactical reload.

    That said, reloading at slide lock is not a good idea unless you are dumping rounds so fast that you end up with an empty reload. The idea with a tactical reload is to be able to find hard cover and, on your own terms, decide when it is best for you to reload. This means that you are not forced to reload when a threat is advancing or when under fire. I don't think one should automatically perform a tactical reload at any lull in battle. However, I think that when one has expended a significant portion of their current magazine/cylinder, and is presented with a lull in battle, and a safe position from which to reload, it would be stupid not to prepare to re-engage with a fully loaded weapon.
     
  19. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    I agree with somethings you have to say. But on certain things we will have to agree to disagree.

    As far as what I teach. Well I teach a intuitive program designed to make the shooter more efficient in the context of a dynamic critical incident (DCI). Intuitive in the context in which we use it is "works well with what the body does naturally". The body is going to do certain things during a DCI. Knowing what the body is most likely going to do and your training working well it is the first step to being efficient. Everything I teach has reasons behind it and many explanations. You wont ever hear me say it's always been done this way, such and such did it this way, another tool for the toolbox.

    As far as gun games and using your street gear. Agree 100%. It's all about consistency and when you switch your gun or any other equipment you aren't being consistent. Most people care more about winning than practicing in a realistic way.

    You are also right about if you dont practice the skills outside of gun school then the skills will diminish. Frequent and realistic practice. Owning the skills is key.

    As far as slide lock. I carry a firearm that holds 16 rounds if the DCI requires more than that I'm not going to have time for an admin. reload. I'm going to shoot to slide lock, recognize slide lock (not visually I feel when the gun hits slide lock), and go into a critical incident reload. Admin reloads sound good on the range not in real life.

    As far as what you teach being based on evidence of shootings through videos, eye witness, etc.

    Same here but we go a little deeper into things body's natural reactions during DCI's, the part of the brain that initiate those responses, doing things in same place and same way every time (Consistency), doing things with the least amount of time, effort and energy (Efficiency) to name a few things.
     
  20. JRV

    JRV Vancouver,Wa Member

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    Well said!

    If there is a "lull in the battle" the admin reload (tactical) is acceptable. 18 rounds spent is one **** of a battle.

    I train to slide lock, WHY? Because the exceptions to your training should be EASY.
     
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