Bill Gives Attorney General Power To Designate Gun Owners, Tax Protesters As Terroris

[Karma]

I guess I'm growing tired of folks claiming that the sky is falling with respect to individual rights under the current administration when the last administration gutted them so utterly deeply that you and I will likely never get them back. I'm on your side when it comes to a loathing of political parties or drawing a clear line of distiction between one administration to another. You are correct in that none of our rights are trivial but I'm not goin to support the whining and shock and horror as more are threatened when the same folks doing the whining likely, and enthusiastically, supported the last batch of ba$tards that were in power- is like closing the barn door after the cows have gone.

Indeed. I understand what you are saying completely. I don't support what the previous administration did for the most part at all. I also agree with the fact that Bush was hugely responsible for eroding our rights. Perhaps even worse, they put framework in place for future administrations the ability to further erode our rights.

I totally get what you are saying. I guess my point is that it is time that we all find common ground and deal with the issues at hand. The more time we spend fighting with each other about who is right, the less time we have to keep our freedoms we have.

You are right about another thing. Once our rights are lost, it is hard to get them back. That's why it is so important to fight for the ones that we have and never take any right for granted.

 

[Monkeyman]

I guess I'm growing tired of folks claiming that the sky is falling with respect to individual rights under the current administration when the last administration gutted them so utterly deeply that you and I will likely never get them back. I'm on your side when it comes to a loathing of political parties or drawing a clear line of distiction between one administration to another. You are correct in that none of our rights are trivial but I'm not goin to support the whining and shock and horror as more are threatened when the same folks doing the whining likely, and enthusiastically, supported the last batch of ba$tards that were in power- is like closing the barn door after the cows have gone.

At risk of sounding partisan, I wish to clarify:

Bush and his administration did not invent subversion of rights. One might argue that "Shredding of the Constitution" began in earnest under Clinton and Janet Reno. We have been on a steady path of losing our freedoms for many, many years before 2000.

Does anyone remember Elian Gonzalez? How about the Branch Davidians? There are just two examples of government overstepping it's bounds (to put it mildly) before anyone ever voted for Bush. It was Reno's Justice Dept. that issued shoot-to-kill orders against the WTO protesters in DC and put Delta force troops on the street in Seattle.

Point is, all this stuff has been in the making a long time, and to blame one party or the other is short-sighted. There has not been a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties in a long, long time. The "knock-and-shoot" raids that have marked our war on drugs go back to, ummm, Bill Bennett, who was Bush I's drug czar, if my memory serves, and a dyed-in-the-wool Reaganite.

I am a lifelong conservative-who-mostly-voted-Republican, completely disillusioned by the Bushes, probably more so by the elder; how did the head of CIA get to be President?

This is an old conspiracy, folks, and when someone like me says it's all coming to a head under Obama, it doesn't imply partisanship, but the recognition of a perfect storm.

 

[jimwsea]

There has not been a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties in a long, long time.

Vanilla and French Vanilla, I say.

 

[JumpWing]

This is an old conspiracy, folks, and when someone like me says it's all coming to a head under Obama, it doesn't imply partisanship, but the recognition of a perfect storm.

Sweet Jesus, THANK YOU!

People are so caught up in the manufactured drama between two puppets that they quickly forget THEY'RE BOTH PUPPETS. They smugly point out how their favorite puppet is superior to the other and argue like eleven-year-old girls discussing the latest teen crap-drama on the WB.

Damage has been done by both sides, each administration more devastating than the one before it. Elections are a choice between the lesser of two evils instead picking the best person for the job; and that's how it is for the few informed voters who are outnumbered 1000:1 by a sea of ignorant boobs that clamor for the best ad campaign and press coverage.

Does this bill actually give the AG power to define certain terms? It really doesn't matter because it doesn't have to. It only needs to lay the groundwork for a bill that actually DOES. The Patriot Act wasn't all THAT bad; at least not until you ponder what is being built on top of it.

I don't advocate hysterics, but downplaying the erosion that's going on is the flip side of the same Stupidity Coin.

 

[CEF1959]

At risk of sounding partisan, I wish to clarify:

Bush and his administration did not invent subversion of rights. One might argue that "Shredding of the Constitution" began in earnest under Clinton and Janet Reno. We have been on a steady path of losing our freedoms for many, many years before 2000.

Does anyone remember Elian Gonzalez? How about the Branch Davidians? There are just two examples of government overstepping it's bounds (to put it mildly) before anyone ever voted for Bush. It was Reno's Justice Dept. that issued shoot-to-kill orders against the WTO protesters in DC and put Delta force troops on the street in Seattle.

Point is, all this stuff has been in the making a long time, and to blame one party or the other is short-sighted. There has not been a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties in a long, long time. The "knock-and-shoot" raids that have marked our war on drugs go back to, ummm, Bill Bennett, who was Bush I's drug czar, if my memory serves, and a dyed-in-the-wool Reaganite.

I am a lifelong conservative-who-mostly-voted-Republican, completely disillusioned by the Bushes, probably more so by the elder; how did the head of CIA get to be President?

This is an old conspiracy, folks, and when someone like me says it's all coming to a head under Obama, it doesn't imply partisanship, but the recognition of a perfect storm.

I think these are very good points. Good call, Monkeyman, recognizing the Branch Davidian fiasco. The Ruby Ridge tragedy is worth mentioning too along those same lines. An unarmed mother shot dead with a child in her arms by a federal agent and no one is responsible?

Other posters have pointed out how things spun out of control in the most recent administration, so no need to repeat that. I will say that the Second Amendment is a civil liberty among other civil liberties. And they all count. The ACLU wants to ignore the Second Amendment, and some groups on the 'right' want to ignore others. I find both points of view hard to swallow.

But Obama is his own man. I'm curious to see where he goes with this stuff.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I am not a big Clinton fan either since he was a conservative in liberal clothing...but I cannot even beginning to compare raiding the Davidian compound with illegally detaining citizens without representation or the Elian Gonzales thing (which was more about custodial rights of the father) with illegally wiretapping American citizens.

I think it shows a clear bias to try and even compare these things. It is like trying to say a mud puddle and Lake Superior are essentially the same thing. It just makes conservatives look like cry babies who never take the blame for anything. It always seems to somehow be the previous dem administrations fault no matter how recent or long ago they were in office.

Liberals were very unhappy with Clinton towards the end of his run and quite often spoke out very harshly about him. It troubles me that conservatives cannot seem to bring themselves to do the same about Bush without somehow making it seem like he was not doing anything everyone else did. It shows a level of closed mindedness that is really worrisome.

 

[Monkeyman]

..but I cannot even beginning to compare raiding the Davidian compound with illegally detaining citizens without representation or the Elian Gonzales thing (which was more about custodial rights of the father) with illegally wiretapping American citizens.

Let's see. . . incinerated by federal agents, or a buzzing on my phone? And as far as "custodial rights of the father" the child was seized from his family AT GUNPOINT. Legal? Perhaps. Compassionate? Please. The Feds were out of control. My only point.

And the Davidian compound was not raided, it was attacked by agents with automatic weapons who murdered citizens and burned the place. With babies inside.
The Feds went out of control. My only point.

How many American citizens were victims of Bush's illegal wiretaps? At least at Waco and Ruby Ridge there was a verifiable body count. No one has ANY proof that innocent Americans were spied upon. No one. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that I believe it didn't happen. Bring some proof that anyone absolutely not connected with a terror plot had their privacy violated on a wiretap. I've looked, and can't find a single case. Same for "illegally detaining citizens without representation". Examples?

I think it shows a clear bias to try and even compare these things.

A civil right denied or revoked is just that. I for one wasn't trying to argue degree. I think it shows a clear bias to try and morally equate alleged wiretaps with mass murder.

It troubles me that conservatives cannot seem to bring themselves to do the same about Bush without somehow making it seem like he was not doing anything everyone else did. It shows a level of closed mindedness that is really worrisome.

What part of "completely disillusioned" did you miss? I think Bush was a disaster, probably for different reasons than you do, but the point here was that he was just a cog in the wheel. No better, no worse than his father, or Clinton, or Obama. All cut from the same cloth. All showing at one point or another no compunction with "trampling the Constitution".

Here's a rare example of posters trying not to be partisan, and you seem to want to steer it back into stupid conservatives versus sensible liberals. I think the professional mental health community has a term: projection?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

What part of "completely disillusioned" did you miss? I think Bush was a disaster, probably for different reasons than you do, but the point here was that he was just a cog in the wheel. No better, no worse than his father, or Clinton, or Obama.

My case in point. he was indeed much worse and even worse than I see Obama ever being. Simply because the far right is so unwilling to ever admit true fault where as the left is very eager to eat their own.

Let's see. . . incinerated by federal agents, or a buzzing on my phone? And as far as "custodial rights of the father" the child was seized from his family AT GUNPOINT. Legal? Perhaps. Compassionate? Please. The Feds were out of control. My only point.

Nice attempt at emotional theater there, but there is a huge difference between raiding a compound under the scrutiny of the public eye and illegally and indefinitely detaining citizens with no charges filed. The fact that the Davidians chose to go down in a blaze of glory instead of cooperationg and getting their dat in court is not the real issue. To try and compare the two is not only absurd but at best is a clear indication of rationalization and bias. It is intellectual dishonesty at it's highest.

PS: "The child" was seized from extended family with no legal rights to the child and returned to his natural father and legal guardian. Regardless of how you feel it should have played out; those are the facts.

 

[cameronhu]

I'm going to have to agree with the Penguin on this one.

 

[Monkeyman]

My case in point. he was indeed much worse and even worse than I see Obama ever being. Simply because the far right is so unwilling to ever admit true fault where as the left is very eager to eat their own.

How a group of citizens may feel about the actions of "their guy" has no bearing on the guy's effectiveness or even his legacy. Bush stunk because he sold his base out, not because a lot of his base can't see that fact. Obama will go down as a rotten president, imho, because of his policies, and not because large swaths of the political left see him as flawless.

Nice attempt at emotional theater there, but there is a huge difference between raiding a compound under the scrutiny of the public eye and illegally and indefinitely detaining citizens with no charges filed. The fact that the Davidians chose to go down in a blaze of glory instead of cooperationg and getting their dat in court is not the real issue. To try and compare the two is not only absurd but at best is a clear indication of rationalization and bias. It is intellectual dishonesty at it's highest.

There was no scrutiny of the public eye. The Feds made the news cameras on site move a mile down the road before they administered the coup de grace. And the children who died alongside their misguided parents neither chose to die nor were they allowed to live by a benevolent government. Absolutely no excuses there, sorry. The Agents who burned that place were judge, jury and executioner.

And, once again, to which illegally and indefinitely detained citizens are you referring? The gang in Gitmo are not citizens of the US.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

How a group of citizens may feel about the actions of "their guy" has no bearing on the guy's effectiveness or even his legacy.

It most definitely does have an effect. When someone is given free reign by a group that will not allow any dissension within it's ranks it allows them to be as careless and reckless as they feel like being. They know they will not be challenged.

There was no scrutiny of the public eye. The Feds made the news cameras on site move a mile down the road before they administered the coup de grace. And the children who died alongside their misguided parents neither chose to die nor were they allowed to live by a benevolent government. Absolutely no excuses there, sorry. The Agents who burned that place were judge, jury and executioner.

You have been reading too many conspiracy theory websites. The feds did not start any fires. The fires were started from inside by the Davidians themselves to avoid capture...and it was done under the eye of public scrutiny. Everything was done through official channels and the media was aware it was happening. In the case of detainees the media was never even informed. You idea that it even similar is laughable at best.

 

[Stomper]

It most definitely does have an effect. When someone is given free reign by a group that will not allow any dissension within it's ranks it allows them to be as careless and reckless as they feel like being. They know they will not be challenged.

You mean a group like the current U.S. Congress, and now the U.S. Senate... oh yeah, and the Oregon legislature? The Repubs & the Dems essentially sing the same song, just a slightly different drum beat... either party is taking us down the extreme leftist road. In this day and age political LABLES, slogans, buzz words, and promises don't mean a flippin' thing... actions do, IMHO.

They won't enslave us by taking our guns, or in trying to take our guns. They're going to break each and every one of us in the financial realm... we will ALL be enslaved to massive debt, and we don't get a say in the principle, the intrest rate, or the duration... you will live SOLEY to service that debt... you will be a SLAVE to that debt... you will only have enough money to subsist after the majority of your paycheck is CONFISCATED to make the intrest payments on the debt your "political heros" put you under. The worst part of it is... so will your descendants for generations to come, with ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in the matter.

Little pink houses for you and me... won't that be grand?

 

[xstayfrostyx]

They won't enslave us by taking our guns, or in trying to take our guns. They're going to break each and every one of us in the financial realm... we will ALL be enslaved to massive debt, and we don't get a say in the principle, the intrest rate, or the duration... you will live SOLEY to service that debt... you will be a SLAVE to that debt... you will only have enough money to subsist after the majority of your paycheck is CONFISCATED to make the intrest payments on the debt your "political heros" put you under. The worst part of it is... so will your descendants for generations to come, with ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in the matter.

Little pink houses for you and me... won't that be grand?

Well said.

New World Order currency anyone?

Medvedev Shows Off Sample Coin of New ‘World Currency’ at G-8
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aeFVNYQpByU4

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

You mean a group like the current U.S. Congress, and now the U.S. Senate... oh yeah, and the Oregon legislature?

Just more proof of what I already stated. Obama has done nothing yet and people are screaming the sky is falling. All the while excusing what Bush did by pretending this President is just as bad...or a past President was just as bad...when that just is not the case.

 

[xstayfrostyx]

Medvedev Shows Off Sample Coin of New ‘World Currency’ at G-8

<broken link removed>

Bad link in previous... this one should work

 

[Monkeyman]

. Everything was done through official channels and the media was aware it was happening.

What was done, in the end, was murder. The media's awareness does not make that ok, and the fact that it was done through official channels only proves my point; the government went out of control.

 

[Monkeyman]

It most definitely does have an effect. When someone is given free reign by a group that will not allow any dissension within it's ranks it allows them to be as careless and reckless as they feel like being. They know they will not be challenged.

You have been reading too many conspiracy theory websites. The feds did not start any fires. The fires were started from inside by the Davidians themselves to avoid capture...and it was done under the eye of public scrutiny. Everything was done through official channels and the media was aware it was happening. In the case of detainees the media was never even informed. You idea that it even similar is laughable at best.

C'mon Penguin. Are you saying Bush was given free reign by the media? By the left? Bush was not challenged? The all-powerful bubba underground maintained a conspiracy? Right wingers can't be ignorant morons and devious criminal geniuses at the same time.

And you really don't know what I've read, so please don't condescend. I'm giving your views a fair hearing, please show the same respect. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm ignorant, right? How can it be that your sources are unimpeachable, and mine are simply internet conspracy rants?

And please, quote me your sources that know without doubt, even though uninformed media had no clue, that American citizens were detained illegally and indefinitely. Name a name. How can everyone be ignorant of it except you and the other illuminati? If the Bush cabal did such a good job of keeping the public in the dark, where'd you learn about it?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

What was done, in the end, was murder. The media's awareness does not make that ok, and the fact that it was done through official channels only proves my point; the government went out of control.

No, it was suicide. Big differnce.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

C'mon Penguin. Are you saying Bush was given free reign by the media? By the left? Bush was not challenged? The all-powerful bubba underground maintained a conspiracy? Right wingers can't be ignorant morons and devious criminal geniuses at the same time.

And you really don't know what I've read, so please don't condescend. I'm giving your views a fair hearing, please show the same respect. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm ignorant, right? How can it be that your sources are unimpeachable, and mine are simply internet conspracy rants?

And please, quote me your sources that know without doubt, even though uninformed media had no clue, that American citizens were detained illegally and indefinitely. Name a name. How can everyone be ignorant of it except you and the other illuminati? If the Bush cabal did such a good job of keeping the public in the dark, where'd you learn about it?

Wow. The level ignorance in which some people are willing to live their lives just to protect their own desires is unbelievable.

My point just keeps being made that neo-cons and Bushies just cannot bare to admit the truth without trying to deflect blame.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Damage has been done by both sides, each administration more devastating than the one before it. Elections are a choice between the lesser of two evils instead picking the best person for the job; and that's how it is for the few informed voters who are outnumbered 1000:1 by a sea of ignorant boobs that clamor for the best ad campaign and press coverage.

I don't advocate hysterics, but downplaying the erosion that's going on is the flip side of the same Stupidity Coin.

Now that's what you call hitting the nail on the head!
Thanks for putting it so concisely JW.