AR's Forward Assist saved Rittenhouse

[EHJ]

I think for most shooting , in most cases...the forward assist is not needed...but when it was...I was glad to have it.

Pretty sure Kyle was, too.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Pretty sure Kyle was, too.

No doubt...might have been a different story otherwise.

It would make for a fun question to ask Kyle...

Interviewer for GunTube :
"So , Kyle...
There has been much debate over the years for the usefulness of the forward assist with the AR15 rifle....
What are your thoughts on this...?"

K.R. :
"So there I was...."
Andy

 

[osprey]

Some have been mentioned, but I will expand on some maybe non traditional uses for the forward assist. When hunting with an AR, I often ride the charging handle while charmbering a round to be as quiet as possible. Many times this causes the bolt to not quite go into battery but with the forward assist depressed it will go into full battery. Another useful application is when using one of the folding stock kits on the AR. To break down the AR with folding kit installed, you must first remove the bolt carrier extension that fits tightly in the back of the bolt carrier by virtue of a couple of o-rings with an interference fit. When pulling this out the whole bolt carrier group wants to come along for the ride. By simply depressing the fa while removing this extension the bcg stays in place. I do have a couple slick sided uppers but my preference is to have a forward assist in most cases.

 

[GrayGoose]

Pretty sure Kyle was, too.

And because of it, I'll bet we'll see forward assists added to the list of evil features such as barrel shrouds and bayonet lugs in the next "assault weapon" ban.

 

[Rkangel]

Nope. Looks like there's three of us.

I appreciate the insight of guys like @Andy54Hawken , who's been there and done that. (Thanks, by the way) But I wonder why a "tap, rack, bang" isn't the method used with an AR?
I have, however, seen cartridges laying on the ground that with a little help would have chambered. It's usually a dented case and the dent would have been fireformed out with no damage to case or firearm.

Four of us.

Although I do find it interesting that the forward assist is a feature that may have saved Kyle's life. It is a real-world example of this feature doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

 

[Lazyfaire]

In all of my shooting of various AR15 type rifles / carbines while as a civilian ....I've only had to use the forward assist a handful of times...

However...when using the M16A1 -A2 series of rifles and the CAR-15 series / M4 Carbine , while in the Army and in combat ...
I have had to use the forward assist a lot....I don't have a exact number and yes I know anecdotally gotten information is flawed....
But I was glad it was there nevertheless.
Andy

Better to have it and not need it, than ..........

 

[Longwalkhome]

Nope. Looks like there's three of us.

I appreciate the insight of guys like @Andy54Hawken , who's been there and done that. (Thanks, by the way) But I wonder why a "tap, rack, bang" isn't the method used with an AR?
I have, however, seen cartridges laying on the ground that with a little help would have chambered. It's usually a dented case and the dent would have been fireformed out with no damage to case or firearm.

Tap rack bang is used with weapons that have single feed magazines. It was developed to clear the most common jams in weapons that have magazines that can only let one round at a time rise.

Compare an AR mag to a 1911 and its obvious you can get the deadly double feed out of an AR magazine and tap rack bang won't clear it.

The forward assist was brought into use by the Army. Turns out when they were forced to accept the AR they had to do some fine tuning because they used ball powder and the AR was designed to run on stick. Ball powder burned gummy and gummy crap is put right back into the action through the gas system. Guns got dirty fast and so a forward assist had to be added.

All this is found in the small arms books.

Small Arms of the World by Ezzel is a good book to start with.

 

[JRuby]

To me the forward assist allows you a better chance of jamming an imperfect round into your chamber - not good
I think the smart move is to eject the round and load another. I am not shooting hundreds of rounds at a enemy where I have a filthy chamber. If you have to use the forward assist maybe it's time to clean and lube your gun.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Gas system in the AR blows crap down on the next rounds up in the magazine. Its even worse when running a suppressor. Sooner or later the crap build up will cause the need for the forward assist. You can keep the gun cleaner by picking good powder to load with. I have seen more jams with commie ammo than American but the gas system is what it is and takes care to keep it reliable. Imho

 

[DizzyJ]

I could see using it if you had to quietly chamber a round.
I could also see using it to chamber a round into a dirty chamber if in a self defense situation.
I can't see using it to try to chamber a poorly sized round.

This right here. Or if the charging handle catches on a piece of gear while moving around especially if the weapon is slung.

 

[Capn Jack]

When hunting with an AR, I often ride the charging handle while charmbering a round to be as quiet as possible. Many times this causes the bolt to not quite go into battery but with the forward assist depressed it will go into full battery.

I've often wondered how far the sound of an AR bolt slamming home carries.

 

[Rkangel]

To me the forward assist allows you a better chance of jamming an imperfect round into your chamber - not good
I think the smart move is to eject the round and load another. I am not shooting hundreds of rounds at a enemy where I have a filthy chamber. If you have to use the forward assist maybe it's time to clean and lube your gun.

No dog in the fight. I am Switzerland when it comes to forward assists - a neutral party.

Of all the times watching the videos, I never even noticed the moment he used the forward assist until he mentioned it in the interview. I'm sure many of us missed it as well. It happened very quickly and while he was in a compromised position, with no time to do a traditional malfunction clearance. IMO having the wherewithal to notice the round didn't chamber in the middle of an outnumbered, adrenaline-charged, point blank, self-defense situation, then to assess and return the firearm to function in the manner he did, as quickly as he did, with little to no time to react - is likely more than any of us could have hoped to do in a similar situation. But we don't know what we are capable of until we actually have to go through it. He did and lived to talk about it, so I won't argue the results.

 

[No_Regerts]

I'll admit I'm not an AR guy. But I never understood a semi-auto or select-fire weapon design with something to help manually seat the chambered round. Why was this considered needed? Sounds like a way of addressing the symptom of a design flaw, but not fixing the actual flaw.

I'll put on my body armor and wait for incoming flak.

Because other guns have bolt handles to push on.

 

[Longwalkhome]

I've often wondered how far the sound of an AR bolt slamming home carries.

get a decibel meter and measure the noise, factor in the humidity and use a chart to check distance the average person hears. Hearing is subjective, I can't hear anything but my daughter hears folks talking a block away.

 

[osprey]

*****Warning thread drift****** I personally think metallic sounds carry a long ways and game definitely keys in on it. Sounds like twigs breaking, footsteps and other more muffled or deadened sounds are way less critical.

 

[Capn Jack]

get a decibel meter and measure the noise, factor in the humidity and use a chart to check distance the average person hears. Hearing is subjective, I can't hear anything but my daughter hears folks talking a block away.

You've overlooked the, "Where", over water, in a jungle, city street, or in a building.
When hunting, open country, I drop the bolt as soon as I exit my vehicle, in a hide, I ease it closed and check with the forward assist.

 

[Longwalkhome]

*****Warning thread drift****** I personally think metallic sounds carry a long ways and game definitely keys in on it. Sounds like twigs breaking, footsteps and other more muffled or deadened sounds are way less critical.

Sound depends on who is hearing. And if they recognize the sound. Funny everyone can hear a fart but they stink so the true deaf can enjoy them too.

 

[DirectDrive]

I'll admit I'm not an AR guy. But I never understood a semi-auto or select-fire weapon design with something to help manually seat the chambered round. Why was this considered needed? Sounds like a way of addressing the symptom of a design flaw, but not fixing the actual flaw.

I'll put on my body armor and wait for incoming flak.

Most autos/semi-autos have a bolt handle.....even the AK has a bolt handle so it's a moot point for the most part.

However, the reason for this thread is that the AR/M16/M4 are unique in that they have no conventional bolt handle.
The charging handle is floating, so pushing on it does nothing to help chamber a round.
During the trial period, the Army was not comfortable with the lack of a bolt handle, therefore the Forward Assist came into being.

 

[FourTeeFive]

However, the reason for this thread is that the AR/M16/M4 are unique in that they have no conventional bolt handle.
The charging handle is floating, so pushing on it does nothing to help chamber a round.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes more sense.

I'm an AK guy, but if the round didn't seat I'd extract instead of pushing it in.

 

[jbett98]

Interesting article I read online posted by The Atlantic magazine about the M16's development.

"The first of several modifications was the addition of a "manual bolt closure," a handle that would permit the soldier to ram a cartridge in manually after it had refused to seat properly by itself. The Air Force, which was to buy the rifle, and the Marine Corps, which had tested it, objected vehemently to this change. An Air Force document said, "During three years of testing and operation of the AR-15 rifle under all types of conditions the Air Force has no record of malfunctions that could have been corrected by a manual bolt closing device." Worse, they said, the device would add cost, weight, and complexity to the weapon, thereby reducing the reliability that had been its greatest asset.

Years later, during the congressional hearings, Eugene Stoner said that he had always opposed a closure device, because "when you get a cartridge that won't seat in a rifle and you deliberately drive it in, usually you are buying yourself more trouble." Colonel Howard Yount, who had been a project manager at the Rock Island arsenal in 1963 and who throughout the hearings bore the burden of explaining the ordnance corps' decisions, was asked how this change could have been justified. Not on the basis of complaints or of prior tests, Colonel Yount said. It was justified "on the basis of direction." Direction from where? a congressman asked. Direction from his superiors on the Army staff, was all he would say. The widespread assumption was that the late General Earl Wheeler, then the Army's Chief of Staff, had personally ordered that the M-16 carry the useless handle, largely because previous Army rifles had had them. Eugene Stoner said that his only explanation for the Army's decision was that "the M-1, the M-14, and the carbine had always had something for the soldier to push on; [perhaps the Army thought] that this would be a comforting feeling to him, or something."

M-16: A Bureaucratic Horror Story

Why the rifles jammed

www.theatlantic.com