Army - Replace the M4 ?

[DirectDrive]

First things first, there are no stocks of thousands of M14's sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Most were torch cut during the Clinton administration from what I remember. This is why I got stares of envy from the 82nd Airborne guys when I had to lug around my M14 and M4 in Kandahar. The M14 I had was a parade/funeral rifle from my National Guard unit's armory. They slapped on a Springfield Armory mount (which was too high) and a Leupold Mk IV scope. It did ok as a DMR with the M118LR ammo we were given. It was, however, less reliable than my M4. It needs grease, not CLP, to run reliably and that is in optimal conditions. Its action is way too exposed for blowing sand let alone mud. Mounting a scope on it is not easy and you need one of those chassis mounts to add any other Army toy like laser designator, night vision, grenade launcher, etc. You know, all that good Army stuff that turns a 7lb carbine into a crew served weapon... As for the reasoning about going to a heavier caliber for longer range and barrier penetration. It may have some merit. If you asked a grunt, he would tell you to get rid of the ROE's and let us use our bubbleguming mortars, missiles and grenade launchers without getting a signed order from some JAG lawyer who is not taking accurate machine gun or sniper fire. Anyways, that would be an interesting concept to ask the actual warfighter what he wants... Hooah.

View attachment 370377

That would be the way to do it.
That Gustav looks like a firefight stopper, but I'll let you pick what you want and help pay for it.

 

[jordanvraptor]

You mean Carl?

 

[DirectDrive]

Yep.
How do you like having Carl on the team ?

 

[jordanvraptor]

I got out before they officially adopted it so I only got to play with it because a Special Forces group we were working with/for was going home and invited us out to the range to have some fun... I think its a lot more versatile than a M203 or AT-4 and quicker into action than mortars. Its kind of like a horizontal mortar. I am glad they are putting it into line use.

 

[DirectDrive]

Looks like it's fast and flat shooting with a nice bang at the end.

 

[JeremyK]

Good old Carl. Responsible for another favorite of mine.

 

[Raidingtime]

I foresee FN getting the contract to produce SCARs for the US military to replace the ARs eventually. They seem to be the next step in technology that would be widely accepted such as the sig pistol was.

 

[Medic!]

Most rifles are better than most Riflemen.

 

[Brutus57]

I have a upper on my pistol with no forward asstView attachment 369991

What, no forward assist? You will die horribly in searing pain as a result.

Brutus Out

 

[salmonriverjohn]

All the mall ninjas and operators out there need something new to gravitate and cling to while they snuggle with and fondle don't ya know.
What ever it is, it's gotta have lots of rails man,, lots of rails

 

[Raidingtime]

All the mall ninjas and operators out there need something new to gravitate and cling to while they snuggle with and fondle don't ya know.
What ever it is, it's gotta have lots of rails man,, lots of rails

Where else can I put my dual lasers, bayonet, 2 extra magazines, red dot, scope, bipod, and flash light? I digress...

All a rifle typically needs attached to it is a flashlight and sling.

 

[jordanvraptor]

A civilian rifle may only need a flashlight and a sling but the military has lots of other toys that can be useful. Here is a pic of part of my military collection. The lower M4 rifle is a Colt/Bravo Company hybrid that is outfitted exactly as the one I carried in Afghanistan. Aimpoint and a BUIS mounted on the upper receiver and a Streamlight M3 flashlight and PAQ-4 laser designator are mounted on a Knights Rail Adapter System. There are even more options for today's grunt.

Also, 32 years ago today, I joined the US Marines at MCRD San Diego and was issued an M16A1 like the rifle at the top of the photo. How things have changed...

 

[Raidingtime]

A civilian rifle may only need a flashlight and a sling but the military has lots of other toys that can be useful. Here is a pic of part of my military collection. The lower M4 rifle is a Colt/Bravo Company hybrid that is outfitted exactly as the one I carried in Afghanistan. Aimpoint and a BUIS mounted on the upper receiver and a Streamlight M3 flashlight and PAQ-4 laser designator are mounted on a Knights Rail Adapter System. There are even more options for today's grunt.

Also, 32 years ago today, I joined the US Marines at MCRD San Diego and was issued an M16A1 like the rifle at the top of the photo. How things have changed...

View attachment 370682

Yes they do. You got issued a aimpoint pro on your rifle? The navy issued me a rifle very similar to yours except no laser and butt stock do hickey you got there. Also had a comp m4 I believe vs the pro. I think we had sure fires too... I don't remember very well. I never paid attention to the gear brands.

Happy birthday devil dog!

 

[jordanvraptor]

My replicas are pretty close to the originals but some substitutions were made for monetary reasons.
Aimpoint Pro is actually better than the Comp M4 in my opinion because the batteries last a lot longer. Oh the stories of Aimpoint battery acquisition and hoarding I could tell... The "PAQ-4" is actually an airsoft visible red laser that actually works pretty well indoors. The buttstock magazine pouch was actually on my service carbine in Afghanistan. It was made locally in Kabul and I bought it at Camp Phoenix. The vertical fore grip and M3 light still have genuine Afghan dirt on them. The sling is a carrying strap from my gas mask bag. We called them chow hall straps to make the M4 easier to carry around the FOB. On missions, I used a Wolf hook attached to my IBA.

The M14 replica is a pre ban M1A but I used a shorter mount and a plain Leupold 4-12 instead of a Mk IV because they are really expensive. I like the sleeker look. All these replicas are just collection range toys not dedicated social work platforms.

I don't know if I would want a heavier rifle like the SCAR heavy. Better penetration and range for sure but minimum combat load of 210 rounds would be a lot more bulk and weight. 11 magazines versus 7. I think this debate or proposal is typical Army thinking of trying to solve tactical problems through technology. Remember Land Warrior 2000? Turn a grunt into Robocop. I really want to text my leadership for orders in the middle of a TIC and don't even get me started about Blue Force Tracker... Ok, rant over.

 

[Raidingtime]

My replicas are pretty close to the originals but some substitutions were made for monetary reasons.
Aimpoint Pro is actually better than the Comp M4 in my opinion because the batteries last a lot longer. Oh the stories of Aimpoint battery acquisition and hoarding I could tell... The "PAQ-4" is actually an airsoft visible red laser that actually works pretty well indoors. The buttstock magazine pouch was actually on my service carbine in Afghanistan. It was made locally in Kabul and I bought it at Camp Phoenix. The vertical fore grip and M3 light still have genuine Afghan dirt on them. The sling is a carrying strap from my gas mask bag. We called them chow hall straps to make the M4 easier to carry around the FOB. On missions, I used a Wolf hook attached to my IBA.

The M14 replica is a pre ban M1A but I used a shorter mount and a plain Leupold 4-12 instead of a Mk IV because they are really expensive. I like the sleeker look. All these replicas are just collection range toys not dedicated social work platforms.

I don't know if I would want a heavier rifle like the SCAR heavy. Better penetration and range for sure but minimum combat load of 210 rounds would be a lot more bulk and weight. 11 magazines versus 7. I think this debate or proposal is typical Army thinking of trying to solve tactical problems through technology. Remember Land Warrior 2000? Turn a grunt into Robocop. I really want to text my leadership for orders in the middle of a TIC and don't even get me started about Blue Force Tracker... Ok, rant over.

"social work platforms" I like your language. M14 and M4s are pretty good "problem solvers".

 

[mkwerx]

The M16/M4 needs replacement, so we're going to replace it with a heavier piston driven M4 variant...from HK.

Pretty sure Ruger could supply a piston AR for half the price.

Seriously if they want a new rifle, they should look at the Tavor since you get longer barrel in the shorter package.

Otherwise there are better piston options, and guns that give you such happy features as folding stocks like the Sig 55x rifles or the SCAR from FN.

Or the Trump administration could use it's contacts with Russia to obtain their latest AK style rifles

Honestly though - the SCAR's are already in use with some units, and I see it being the winner as the new general issue rifle. As much as the government spends our money like a drunken sailor at the two-for-one whorehouse, I think they'd still go for the FN over the HK. Beretta beat Sig out for becoming the M9 partly based on cost-per-unit, so buying more expensive rifles is not something I see them doing.

 

[DirectDrive]

SCAR maybe. Brings "modular" to the party and the 7.62 x 51 version of SCAR has to be a giant plus.
Tavor....don't think so. A mag in the buttstock area of a rifle is too Euro.
So culturally, the Tavor is at a disadvantage.

 

[CamoDeafie]

SCAR maybe. Brings "modular" to the party and the 7.62 x 51 version of SCAR has to be a giant plus.
Tavor....don't think so. A mag in the buttstock area of a rifle is too Euro.
So culturally, the Tavor is at a disadvantage.

Of the arms used in NATO; I think theres the SA80/L86?, FAMAS, AUG, AICW (Australian) C30..fn2000 and a few others?

 

[DirectDrive]

Of the arms used in NATO; I think theres the SA80/L86?, FAMAS, AUG, AICW (Australian) C30..fn2000 and a few others?

Yep, that's the other side of the pond.
Good for them.

Edit:
Those are all "gun control" countries.
Interesting.

 

[Boboclown]

SCAR maybe. Brings "modular" to the party and the 7.62 x 51 version of SCAR has to be a giant plus.
Tavor....don't think so. A mag in the buttstock area of a rifle is too Euro.
So culturally, the Tavor is at a disadvantage.

>Says something is too Euro
>Says something designed by a European country would be a good idea.


A bullpup ain't gonna happen here unless the U.S invents one. Hell, we had an arbitrary requirement in the last test, if it wasn't twice as reliable as the M4 it doesn't win. Even if it was still significantly more reliable.

Plus, while I still like my AUG (no Tavor for me), if wearing a vest it requires you to fire it off the bicep.

FAMAS

The FAMAS, with its convenient surrender handle and retreat legs.