Are there any cartridges better than the .30-06?

[jonn5335]

Performance has nothing to do with being better - pushing a bullet faster does not make a cartridge better. And yes a peice of 300SAUM brass is more expensive than a 30-06 case. If your only desire is to push bullets faster then good for you but that in mind does not make a cartridge bette. You burn more powder, you have heavier recoil where it is not needed, you have to pay more for reloading and the likely hood the cartridge will be around in the future is limited. As to ammunition availability to me that means alot.

What makes you think the SAUM are better - simply because you have one and they are new? I deer hunted with a Browning ABolt chambered in 300 WSM - in no way did I feel that I had a superior cartridge wether firing it from the bench or in the field. So where exactly does this performance come into play - what can you shoot and kill with your 300SAUM that I cannot with a 270 or 30-06. I see detractors but no real advantage - so the bullet goes a little faster but uses more powder. I dont get it.

James Ruby

I don't even own a saum. I do own and have owned multiple 30-06's. It's obvious no matter what you are going to say a 30-06 is better then anything till you turn blue in the face. What do you call a better cartridge? If one can burn the same weight of powder but a different brand shoot the same grain bullets 200fps+ faster in the same length barrel and be just as accurate? Yes, if you buy remington brass new the cost locally for me is the same as for 30-06. If you can't handle the recoil that's your problem not the guns. I already said that a deer most likely won't know the difference if you shoot him with either but the 300 saum has better long range performance then the 06 will ever have.

 

[JGRuby]

In this case popularity and availability does count if all I am giving up is 200FPS and I dont think it can be proven that they are more accurate. if I really need that 200FPS I will go to hornady light magnum laods and I am there inteh 30-06. I can go to BiMart and buy 30-06 brass today bet you cant buy SAUM brass there without ordering it. In my mind if we are going to go to a 30 caliber magnum case then i would choose a 300WM over any SAUM because it has proven itself and will be there tomorrow. Does anyone todaY even manufacture rifles in SAUM - I know that Ruger stopped because they would not sell.

James Ruby

 

[DieselScout]

In this case popularity and availability does count if all I am giving up is 200FPS and I dont think it can be proven that they are more accurate. if I really need that 200FPS I will go to hornady light magnum laods and I am there inteh 30-06. I can go to BiMart and buy 30-06 brass today bet you cant buy SAUM brass there without ordering it. In my mind if we are going to go to a 30 caliber magnum case then i would choose a 300WM over any SAUM because it has proven itself and will be there tomorrow. Does anyone todaY even manufacture rifles in SAUM - I know that Ruger stopped because they would not sell.

James Ruby

If the same bullet is being fired in the same conditions, then the bullet traveling faster will be more accurate. A faster bullet in the air has less time for outside forces to act on it. Since gravity effects all things equally, gravity is not a factor and can be compensated for. What cannot be compensated for is wind. Wind is an unknown, it can gust, change angles and vary over great distances. The faster the bullet gets to the target, the less time wind has to act on the bullet. The faster the bullet, the less time it spends getting knocked around by unknowns and the more accurate it is.

Now, can either you or I shoot well enough that it's going to matter? I sure as hell can't and in a hunting situation there isn't many who can. The longest shot I've had to take was a 120 yard uphill shot, would 200 FPS mattered there, no. Will 200 FPS matter to me? No, because I am not going to shoot on the margin where 200 FPS is going to make a difference.

JGRuby, please don't misunderstand me, I am just making the performance case. However I do agree with you. If someone was going to hunt large game in the USA and asked me what caliber to get, without pause I'd tell them the .30-06 for all the reasons you've mentioned.

FWIW

<broken link removed>

<broken link removed>

<broken link removed>

The beloved .30-06 130 Options


<broken link removed>

 

[Greenbug]

My elk rifle (30-06) was a little bit of overkill for this coyote....

127 yards 168 Grain Berger VLD Hunting 2880 FPS.

 

[JGRuby]

It is hard to dispute the winds impact teh shot placement- so I cant argue anything there except to say that at some poit recoil does have an effect on accuracy or else we would be shooting 30-378 WM's.

I am an ok shot but not great seems with the money the I have spent over the years I should be better. My 30-06 is not a target rifle it is an old 1903-A3 springfield custom that works well for me - would a saum do the trick yup - but to be honest I choose my rifles because they work and I have trust in them. I do not know how many 30-06 I have owned but lets just say more than a couple. I agree with short fat cartridges burning better and maybe my debate is because I dont like many of the newer cartridges that have become the fad. I for instance hunt elk with a 9.3X62 or my 338-06. Both cartridges that you arent going find in the middle of no where - my 30-06 is usually my backup because I know it works and I know that it can handle almost any circumstance.

The problem with the 30-06 is that it is too general purpose - it too much for deer in my opinion and not as good as my 9.3X62 and 338-06 for elk. I typically use a 7mm mauser or 300 Savage for deer. If I was told that I could only have one rifle today it would be a 30-06 because to me it can do it all - but as in life there are trade offs. The last deer I hit with a 30-06 my brother told me if it was anyone elses deer he would not touch it was mangled so badly - we could put a coffee cup through the whole on the offside where the bullet came out. I know lots of factors play into that scenario.

I know that there are faster and harder hitting cartridges than the 30-06 - there should be the 30-06 has been around for over 100 years. I woudl surely have hoped we had something bigger or more accurate in that time and we have both. To me the greatest genral purpose hunting cartridge for North America to hunt big game with is the 30-06, IMHO.

James Ruby

 

[JackThompson]

For what it's worth, not counting popularity or ballistic minutia, I've fired the following rifle calibers
:

30.06
7.62x39
7.62x54r
.308
7mm Mauser
7mm Express
30-30
.54 caliber Muzzle loader
6.5 Jap
5.56/2.23


It could be the make and model of the rifle (I've fired a few different ones of most of those)
But I seem to perform better personally and have more confidence with the 30.06.

My vote is 30.06 if I had to pick one.

 

[JGRuby]

My list of cartridges in my gun rack are
6mm remington
25-06
270
7X57
30-30
300 Savage
30-06
308
338-06
9.3X62

To start on all the different cartridges I have shot /owned would be very time consuming. Two years ago I had about 3X as many cartridges but I have found these to work very well. The more you get the more you get to clean.

James Ruby

 

[osprey]

We all tend to have go to rifles and if I could only hunt with one for the rest of my years it would be a 280 AI with high BC 160 gr. bullets. Oh and I am pretty much completely hosed if I am in bum f#ck and discover I did not bring my ammo along. To get bullets with as high of a BC as the .284 160's you have to go up to a 180 gr. in .30 cal., and the venerable 06 just doesn't spit them out quite fast enough for my liking. This doesn't mean it is better than the 06, it just means it is better for me. Hard to argue against recommending an 06 to somebody for many reasons but thank god they make many different chamberings for us oddballs. Carry on!

 

[Spitpatch]

I think there are a LOT of cartridges better than the .30-06 for certain various purposes.

I'm just not sure there are very many cartridges better than the .30-06 for nearly all purposes in North America.

I think the cartridge is mundane, pedestrian, and unexciting. I have avoided it all my life for calibers of more intrique.

Tell me what caliber for general big game hunting in North America you believe is a better choice, and why.

I'll reveal my choice late in discussion. It may surprise some.

Greetings, Sportsfans. I am guilty of lighting a fire and not returning to check its progress or extinguish it. I had a horrible Christmas in 1959 when I did the same thing: set my bed on fire a week previous, did not return to check its progress or extinguish it, so I should know better. Mom called from the kitchen asking "What are you doing in there?" To which I replied with the best thing in my tool belt of dealing with adults at the age of 4: "Nothin'".

Now it has been said by great scientists that you cannot disprove a negative. They are wrong. If there was any doubt in my mind about the existence of Santa Claus, it was completely negated when my Mom told me I'd get nothing but coal and switches in my stocking for Christmas, and I would NOT be going to the department store to tell the old man any different. I was on the "naughty" list. I had no Christmas that year. Even the presents that Nana (grandma on Dad's side) sent, were witheld from me until the following August (my birthday). Where Mom and Dad found Kingsford Briquets in December, I have not a clue. Where they got the switches, I was only too familiar: Mom'd hand me a knife from the kitchen drawer on a more than regular basis, and instruct me to amputate a stout one from the weeping willow tree in the back yard in order that she have a formidable applicator to my behind for one transgression or another.

I am guilty of starting another fire, but I get a pass for October: I spent the whole month in Montana hunting. I can only ask forgiveness for November, as the excuse there is more personal (don't ask: it wasn't fun, but I'm getting over it).

I took the liberty or license to re-quote my original post. Some paid attention to my crafted criteria. Others diverged. The most important conclusion to draw from each and every good contributor here, is that

THE BEST CARTRIDGE FOR NORTH AMERICAN HUNTING IS THE ONE THAT HAS WORKED BEST FOR YOU.

For me, for nearly all purposes in North America, I believe a better choice than the .30-06, for general big game hunting is the .250-3000 Savage. The reasons stack up numerously and with integrity:

1) First and foremost: (Jack O'Connor disciple of the First Order here) SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING! Yes, it is EVERYTHING! No caliber, velocity, or "efficiency" (real or imagined) from a cartridge will save you from a poorly placed shot. Good and true hunters (in the original definition of the word) know this to be axiomatic and gospel. Rifle hunters who are good enough to be also bowhunters know this all too well. There is no avoidance of the truism. And, it is not that the .250 NEEDS to be placed properly (ALL cartridges hold that need), but that it TEACHES such placement easily and comfortably. Proper shot placement for the .250 shooter is easier than tying one's shoes. There will be no pain. There will be no (even brief) loss of senses at the pulling of the trigger. There will be only the perfect knowledge and comfortable performance of a surgical insertion of the projectile to result in a quick kill.

2) Adequate power for the criteria "nearly all": "But, But, The .250 Savage simply CANNOT be considered adequate for elk!" (Sphagnum fans would proclaim.) Well, I must confess, I've only shot two with it. I could tout the fact that no second shot was needed on either one. Better evidence may be gathered from hunters and riflemen of greater current fame than myself: Ask John Barsness, or Wayne VanZwoll what they think of the cartridge for elk. (Better yet, ask them what they think about the cartridge for just about everything.) These gentlemen are contemporaries of mine (for those from Rio Linda, that means about the same age). Somehow, all three of us (and I would not presume to place myself in their company except for this one independent conclusion) have found some very fine and very respectable (they hold some reverence: I have not yet been accused of such) regard for this cartridge.

I might also add that I outfitted a Ruger M77 .250 Savage for my sister-in-law who is a Sourdough (of 30 years) in Alaska. When the gun was presented to her on an Antelope hunt with me in Montana, she proceeded to pop a fine buck in the back of the head going away at 325 yards (a bit too much holdover, but shot placement could not be faulted). It has resided with her in Wasilla now 15 years;she will not shoot any other gun, calls it "The Black Widow" (it has a black synthetic stock I installed, and I honestly fear for my brother, her husband), and multiple Caribou have fallen to the stout 100g Partition, and two Moose found the same bullet to somehow make its way to their far ribs as well. She was not a rifle(person) prior. She is now. Comfort, Accuracy, Reliable Killing Power.

3) Perhaps this should be number one: The cartridge lends itself (by pleasure and comfort and accuracy and reliablity) to frequent USE. It is realy not overkill for a foray to the Prairie Dog towns (in fact, on a windy day, it may put a .22-250 to shame there). For off-season Coyote hunting, even the Sphagnum fans would concede its perfection in that "fast and furious, better-know-your-gun" shooting scenario. Remember here: the criteria was toward a "one gun, what would you choose" question. Although the criteria was for big game, there is no subsitute for practice and year-round familiarity; if smaller game allows that constant contact with the weapon and cartridge, this can translate into nothing but success in the big game field. "Beware the man who carries but one gun...likely he knows how to use it."

Although the .30-06 can be loaded light, and can be loaded to amazing versatility for "off-season" pursuits, it simply cannot find the same perfect application toward frequent year-round usage that can be entirely enjoyed with the .250-3000 Savage. Rare is the .30-06 devotee who takes his "ol' Springfield" to the Sage Rat fields on a regular basis, or sets up in January behind an electronic call for Song Dogs. It is practice that delivers shot placement: and we already know how important shot placement is.

4) I will not attempt to defend the .250-3000 as a cartridge for Kodiak Brown Bear (here, I will take refuge in my original criteria of "nearly all".) But I do recall in my library a Savage advertisement in the American Rifleman of the '30's or '40's regarding the Savage 99 in .250-3000 showing a Grizzly Bear at full charge. In those days, the "extreme" velocity of the .250 was seen as a panacea for any and all applications, including Grizzly Bears. More than one scribe used it on Polar Bears to good result. Another author of great note found it to be an instant killer for Tigers in their neck of the global woods. (Interestingly, these famous reports almost always regarded the promoted 87g load.) I would much prefer a 12ga slug, but honestly believe that a 100g Partition precisely and surgically placed into the heart of a Grizzly Bear would cause him to expire in very short order (I cannot hope for any abilty to do that at full charge).

5) Weird stuff: There is something about the .250-3000 that allows it to kill well beyond and apart from how it should. Nearly all persons using it (all well-acquainted and experienced with 6mms) will report the same. There is in addition a percieved advantage it may have over the Roberts and .25-06, in that the velocity is at the ideal level to allow good penetration without explosive expansion inhibitiing good pentetration. (Much as the 7mm Mauser and 6.5x55 have been credited with against their same-caliber/higher-velocity counterparts.)

Finally, I believe the cartridge has it all. Most importantly, I believe the cartridge lends itself to year-round constant pleasurable use, resulting in confidence and success in the big game field, as a result of predetermined absolute and directed shot placement. Modern bullets of good construction have only added to its mythical revered performance. John Barsness and Wayne VanZwoll stand apart from the crowd in many ways where gunwriters are concerned: they deal in experience and first-hand results. The three of us (born and bred with rifles in our hands) came to seperate but identical conclusions about this very fine cartridge: go figure.

 

[badclam]

I agree, I like my magnums for a bench gun. But I use a 22-250 or a 280 for hunting. Its funny that people some how think you have to have a large caliber magnum rifle to hunt anything larger than a deer. I've seen some very large bulls go down with a 243.

Yea, Right. Bull is the operative word there. A lot of bullz.

 

[orygun]

For instance based purely on performance a .300 SAUM with the same weight powder charge,bullet weight,barrel length and in a short action will produce 200fps+ over a 30-06. Now the .300 SAUM may not be as popular as a 30-06 but it is more efficient. Will a deer know the difference at 100 yards? Probably not, But that's not the point.

I'll be a bit nice when I hold my tongue enough so that all I say is, "Where did you get your information"?
the Nosler #6 manual lists the fastest velocity with a 180gr bullet for a SUAM being generated with IMR 4831. The charge is 8.5gr more than a what is used in a 30-06. There is about a 250fps difference in those loads.
However RL22 takes "only" 5 more gr in a SAUM to gain a whopping 30fps difference.

The fastest loads for these two cartridges are about 150fps difference (with different powders) but there is still quite a variance in charge weights. When you drop the charge weights in the SUAM to match what you can put in an 06 case, then the 06 is about 200 fps faster.

If you do the math, the SAUM is faster, but NOT more efficient than a 30-06.

 

[orygun]

Spit, I should have known......

And now I want to go hunt coyotes with my 06!

 

[Spitpatch]

Spit, I should have known......

And now I want to go hunt coyotes with my 06!

And now... you have to.

It's either that or find a .250.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

And now... you have to.

It's either that or find a .250.

Or a good .25-06. I agree that the .250-3k is an excellent choice, I have one in an old lever twister that is deadly, yet when it comes to that "by god I know I can hit that wood chuck" feeling, I'll reach for my old M-70 every time. But then again, that's what I know I can hit that chuck in the head with every time. Yep, its tons of shooting that will bring this confidence and I suppose that's the old magic that I have with her, sort of like your sis and the black widow. But when it comes right down to it Spitpatch, that's the one rifle/caliber combo that I will throw all my chips on. Best "all round" cartridge, maybe not, but I'm still in love with her 50 years later and I don't see us getting a divorce anytime soon

 

[orygun]

And now... you have to.

It's either that or find a .250.

Let's go!
There's a nice little Savage 99 .243 in the safe, you would probably let me bring... but I'd probably still just bring the 06.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Let's go!
There's a nice little Savage 99 .243 in the safe, you would probably let me bring... but I'd probably still just bring the 06.

Besides, if you don't take her to the dance in favor of another, well that's just plain bad form!
Hey orygun, you ever look into the 6mm Remington? I have a dandy Steyr Mannlicher in that flavor that is a tack driver, and from a reloaders point of view just a shade faster/flatter than the .243, especially in 100 grain bullets, although I'd never kick the .243 as a slouch .

 

[JGRuby]

I find it hard to beleive that a 250-3000 is more general purpose than a 30-06. My dad when I was young made a one shot kill on a large white tail deer with a 22LR because we needed the meat. One shot to the side of the head and it was like he hit hit an oil can, one solid stream of blood. I think the deer went about 20 some feet. He did what he needed to do. I however do not consider it a deer cartridge. Because somethng can be done once does not mean that it should become the standard. it must be done many times to become a standard. I respect your opinion however I would rather hunt deer or larger animals with a 30-06 over a 250 savage any day. My job as a hunter is to take my game as humanely as possible. A larger cartridge gives me a little more insurance. If all I had was a 250-3000 I would use but be very careful of my shots. I hunt public property and have to be able to take the shot that presents itself and the 30-06 gives me more options. Shot placement is the most important factor and if a lighter cartridge aids in that - great.

James Ruby

 

[orygun]

Besides, if you don't take her to the dance in favor of another, well that's just plain bad form!
Hey orygun, you ever look into the 6mm Remington? I have a dandy Steyr Mannlicher in that flavor that is a tack driver, and from a reloaders point of view just a shade faster/flatter than the .243, especially in 100 grain bullets, although I'd never kick the .243 as a slouch .

The .243 actually came with the wife when she moved in. It was her first rifle. If I was choosing one sorta like that, I'm just wacky enough that I would have 6mm!

 

[JGRuby]

I also like the 6mm remington - at 100 yards it will cut a nice little clover leaf only if I use 85 gr speer bullets. The difference between 100 gr and 85 gr bullets is amazing. I consider it too light for deer at that weight of bullet.

James Ruby

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Agreed JG, I wont kick dust on the little .250 though. As a deer cartridge it works as well as any. But as a general all around cartridge that can be counted on when it matters there are four that come to mind, The 7mm rem mag, the .30-06, the .270 and the .308. The .25-06 fits in there somewhere but those are the four that I would call, best all around.