All it takes to make me hate working on cars

[Ura-Ki]

I am not scared to work on most things, except Jaguar, that's just crazy!
I work on Aero engines a lot, and it's loads of fun!
Here is what i'm used to building!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Try working on a 1980s merecedes s class (or grosser which is worse). It's like a Rube Goldberg machine where most everything runs off of vacuum (windows, door locks etc etc.). And the " computers" are scary primitive. Remember those first digital watches that came out with the red led display? It's technology like that, in between mechanically controlled cars and computer controlled cars so it has bits of both and they don't work great together a lot of times.

Another one is any v12. You have to get all kinds of tools to get crazy angles to get at anything (like spark plugs). Have never worked on a W12 but the thought makes me shudder.

Lastly mid engined cars. Radiators in the front, coolant lines to the trunk usually (the rear trunk I mean, not the front trunk), engine right behind the seats. For a lot of things you have to remove the whole engine to get at it.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Try working on a 1980s merecedes s class (or grosser which is worse). It's like a Rube Goldberg machine where most everything runs off of vacuum (windows, door locks etc etc.). And the " computers" are scary primitive. Remember those first digital watches that came out with the red led display? It's technology like that, in between mechanically controlled cars and computer controlled cars so it has bits of both and they don't work great together a lot of times.

Another one is any v12. You have to get all kinds of tools to get crazy angles to get at anything (like spark plugs). Have never worked on a W12 but the thought makes me shudder.

Lastly mid engined cars. Radiators in the front, coolant lines to the trunk usually (the rear trunk I mean, not the front trunk), engine right behind the seats. For a lot of things you have to remove the whole engine to get at it.

That's why I specifically mentioned Jag, they are about the very worst automobile ever built, it's like the engine designers purposely made it as complicated as possible and then sat back, smoke a joint and then made it worse then that! I had the unfortunate "Pleasure" of trying to work on one, the fuel injection system had like 48 little 3/8 hose clamps to hold the metal fuel rails to the mechanical injectors through little 1 inch long rubber fuel lines! Making all that worse, was the fuel rails each had these little soldered nozzles that cracked their solder joints and sprayed fuel all over the engine! The factory wants $600 each ( X2) and the shops all wanted a few grand to do the work! So, I got talked into fixing the damn thing! After all that, I find out the fuel distribution pump is also leaking, ( one of the few Bosh parts on a Lucas car) so I had to take the whole thing apart again and then find no one even stocks the parts here in the states, they have to be special ordered, and that may take a few months! So, being the resourceful guy I am, I take it off and disassemble it, I figure it needs to be re sealed but there is no gasket of anything, yup, it's a cryo sealed part, so now I gotta get a bunch of dry ice and super cool it so I can then screw it back together and hope for the best!
I cheated and sprayed a contact cement on the one side and ran silk thread around the matting surface Lycoming/Continental style, and it worked like a charm!
Few weeks later and the water pump went out! I said no thank you, and have not touched a Jaguar since! Neato looking cars, but a super stupid as all hell design, and the worlds WORST electrical system!

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I hear you. That's why so many older jags burn up (I mean due to the fuel rail etc. leaking onto the engine, not the owners purposely torching them in frustration).

Hear is a cool video u may like on the assembly of a w12. Check out the timing chain on that thing! Vw phaetons had them as an option and Audi s8 (in addition to Bentley). The Bugatti veyron uses a w16 with 4 radiators.
Bentley W12 Engine Assembly Looks Like Ballet Of Man And Machine

 

[shibbershabber]

Try working on a 1980s merecedes s class (or grosser which is worse). It's like a Rube Goldberg machine where most everything runs off of vacuum (windows, door locks etc etc.). And the " computers" are scary primitive. Remember those first digital watches that came out with the red led display? It's technology like that, in between mechanically controlled cars and computer controlled cars so it has bits of both and they don't work great together a lot of times.

Another one is any v12. You have to get all kinds of tools to get crazy angles to get at anything (like spark plugs). Have never worked on a W12 but the thought makes me shudder.

Lastly mid engined cars. Radiators in the front, coolant lines to the trunk usually (the rear trunk I mean, not the front trunk), engine right behind the seats. For a lot of things you have to remove the whole engine to get at it.

I had an 86 420SEL for a while that was a pain in the bubblegum to work on.... I finally gave it up when the timing chain started rattling and I didnt have the time or space to replace the guides... Sad day. It was a hell of a car.

 

[Ura-Ki]

LOL!
I do fuel injected Lycoming engines, and just built a Turbo Electronic Fuel injected one for my self! They still use ether an old Bosh type mechanical injection system, or a bespoke electronic system that cannot be tuned or adjusted outside the factory, so I source Holly ProJection system parts and wiring harness and make my own system using a combo of MSD and Jacobs crank triggered ignition and injection signal with the Holly driver for control!, It works very well, is simple as you could ever want, its super easy to set up and tune, and reliable as any other system there is! Makes awesome power, and uses way less fuel then any other system I have ever seen! Of course it's not FAA/ASEM legal, so I can not sell it, or even do it fore any one else, but I can show others how to do it, and let them have fun with it!

I need to fab a different intake and exhaust system for it, loose some much needed weight, and make it more compact to fit my cowling better!

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Ford [the dealership] knows exactly what the problem is and can fix it easily, and they will after they drain more $$ from your credit card, after another few visits. Then they will go for the coup-de-grace and tell you it will be 800 bucks to drop the gas tank and replace the float and related parts in there.

So yes they can fix it but they still got a lot more $$ to take from you before they get to actually fixing the real problem.

If car dealerships and repair shops only fixed the actually problem a car had when the owner brings it in they would decrease their income by 2/3rds.

maybe some shops are hacks like that but the dealer ive worked for for a decade sure as hell isnt.

 

[Lesliet]

I've only ever worked for one dishonest shop in a 30+ year career. When I put a battery in, I usually test the new one, just to make sure it's not a dud. So, I did that, preparing to put a battery in this old Vietnamese guy's car. Battery tests "junk" right off the shelf, no good battery available that day. The boss told me to put it in anyway, and we'd warranty it out later. I wasn't ok with that... and having only been at that shop a week or so, I just packed up my tools and found an honest place to work. ( There'd been a few other things that caused me to raise an eyebrow, not just this one.)

It's been my experience that most of the time when stuff doesn't get fixed the first time, that it's not dishonesty, it's just that cars now can be really difficult to figure out for sure what the problem is. You do your best, but sometimes you get the wrong answer... of course, the customer thinks it's black and white, we just put our scanner on the car, and it tells us what part to replace, right?

Anyone ever done the thing where you replace the part you thought was bad, and the problem doesn't change? " Well, I guess it wasn't that, keep looking". After a few more hours, you figure out the new part was bad out of the box...and you spend a little time discussing the parents of those elbows that sold you junk? I had that happen on a Jetta with an ignition coil pack. Two bad new ones in a row! Takes some courage to tell the service writer you are SURE that part is bad, and you need another one.

At one shop where I worked, we had a new customer come in to diagnose something, and it eventually turned out he was a reporter trying to do one of those stories about shops ripping people off. I don't remember the specifics about what his concern was, just that we did our best to fix it without selling anything he didn't need. The guy was so impressed with our shop, he became a regular customer after that!

 

[notazombie]

Ford [the dealership] knows exactly what the problem is and can fix it easily, and they will after they drain more $$ from your credit card, after another few visits. Then they will go for the coup-de-grace and tell you it will be 800 bucks to drop the gas tank and replace the float and related parts in there.

So yes they can fix it but they still got a lot more $$ to take from you before they get to actually fixing the real problem.

If car dealerships and repair shops only fixed the actually problem a car had when the owner brings it in they would decrease their income by 2/3rds.

No. Shops, both dealerships and independent, are in a constant struggle to retain current customers as well as attract new ones. There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer. As mentioned previously, there is no magic scanner box that techs plug into the car that just tells them what's broken. And not all techs are equal when it comes to diag. Then there's the occasions where the customer gives a vague or misleading description of an intermittent condition that can't be reproduced in the bay.
Being a tech isn't as easy, fun, or profitable as some of you guys seem to think.

 

[Mikej]

Not car shops, but small engine shops. I absolutely despisssssssse being forced to have any contact with their service departments. And the only reason i have ever done that is for warranty needs on new equipment. Granted car shops are going to have papered somewhat trained mechanics at minimum. I've had a go-around with a couple/three of those pukes in the small engine shops when I knew damned well what the issue was and they treat me like I don't know a thing. Pitty the poor basterds that have to take their power equipment to the shops for anything/everything.

 

[NCW_Robert]

No. Shops, both dealerships and independent, are in a constant struggle to retain current customers as well as attract new ones. There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer. As mentioned previously, there is no magic scanner box that techs plug into the car that just tells them what's broken. And not all techs are equal when it comes to diag. Then there's the occasions where the customer gives a vague or misleading description of an intermittent condition that can't be reproduced in the bay.
Being a tech isn't as easy, fun, or profitable as some of you guys seem to think.

"There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer"

Wish I could believe that but after seeing some of my friends spend hundreds and hundreds of $$ needlessly replacing parts they did not need because it did not solve the problem, the idiots at the dealership finally luck into the tight part and fix it. But, what about the 800 bucks just spent that did not solve the problem and your telling me that was not purposefully fraud? There have been literally hundreds of documented cases of out and out fraud by every level of repair shop from dealerships on down in the media.

So I 100% disagree with the point there is no upside. CASH IN THERE POCKETS AND OUT OF YOUR POCKET is a pretty large upside for them and mark my words they dont give a darn if you ever come back. Most large repairs are a one time thing so they "get it while they can", and that is when you are there.

Here are two examples out of many from my own experience, one 25 yrs ago and one 3 months ago. Once we had a 1992 Honda accord, we took it to a local shop that was part of a national chain. There was a noise coming from the left front caliper. Their estimate for a complete brake job, 1900.00 yes that is right, nineteen hundred bucks. They even gave me a printed estimate and did that with a straight face and yes I knew better haha. I took it to another local shop and they removed a rock lodged in where the pads are where the piston contacts the brake pad and said your "good to go", no charge.

Go ahead and try to convince me this $1900 estimate was legitimate and it really would have cost $1900.00 to do a complete brake job. BTW I still got that estimate in my records some place, I kept it.

Next example, Recently my wife took her car in for a brake job and they hit her for 750.00. this was a local place I trusted. What happened? They conned here into letting them replace the calipers in addition to the rotors and pads because she said she wanted the car to be "safe" So they said well at 60k miles those calipers need replacing so they put a set of crap rebuilt carpers on the car that flopped around and rattled because the holes the caliper rides on where over size and they did not bother checking them when the rebuilt the old calipers they installed on the car.

I removed the calipers, diagnosed the problem went down told them what i found and we argued and went around and around. Finally I said lets go for a ride, did what it took to make it THUNK THUNK THUNK and said look man, I do not care what you say it did not make that thunk before and your going to fix it so it does not make it or else. He ended up ordering another set of rebuilt calipers and putting those on. I had asked them for my original calipers back and said I will pay the core charge just give me my damn OEM calipers back, he claimed they were already sent off to the re-builders.

Go ahead and try and tell me that 2012 Subaru really did need new calipers with 60k miles on it? No it did not. None of these rip off artist gave a crap about "retaining our business", just getting as deep into our pockets as we would let them.

If you really want to believe "There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer" then you go right ahead but your not going to convince me, I got a life time of experience spanning 40 yrs with these retards and I will walk through broken glass to avoid them. So will most of my friends who have had attempts to "retain their business" by being gouged as hard as possible by these fine local repair shops and dealerships.

That last brake job was done at a place I trusted, the exact place that saved us from the 1900 ripoff attempt 25 yrs before but I'll not go back to them again after this BS the pulled with the $750 brake job that should have been $350. They did nothing to diagnose the OEM calipers, just replaced them. Where they leaking no, where they cracked? no. There where no problems, they just straight up lied to my wife using the trigger word "SAFETY" to make a much bigger profit off her. My wife is vary smart but she will believe a minimum wage idiot at a repair shop or tire shop if they tell her something must be replaced for "safety".

BTW, reason she did not want me to do that brake job? I was really busy with work. The vary next week I did a complete brake job on my 2006 Tacoma with brembo rotors and top quality pads and new brake fluid. Took an afternoon and I said to wife see, you should have just told me you wanted a brake job, would have only taken one afternoon. She could care less, just shrugged and walked away. WTF? So what if it would have been 3k you were taken for, would that exceed your tolerance level for being screwed over? I been married to her for 40 yrs and still am not able to understand female logic??? or.. lack thereof.

I am not saying there are no honest repair shops out there, hahaha, I am saying they are not the rule, they are the exception. See exception example below.

I sponsored a race car on the west side about 10 yrs ago when i was doing business websites, free racing website for my biz name on both sides of his car and they guy who raced also had a auto repair shop and he was a devout christian, no really he was and I know the difference I was dragged to church every weekend for the first 18 yrs of my life and could finish any sermon from "the meek shall inherit the earth" to the most "fire and brimstone your all gonna burn in h-e-L-L" you could name.

I had enough "religion" for the rest of my life. I'm ok with god, just not with church and preachers. So after dealing with Mr. race car guy for some years I would trust him explicitly with any of my cars where I to want/need work done. Sadly he had a hart attack and passed so he is fixing cars for god now. For some reason his wife begged me to keep the racing website online after he passed so I am. Racing for Jesus Ministries

~

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Personally I think the chance of finding both honesty and knowledge at a dealer is extremely remote. With a good Indy shop there is a much higher chance.

Case in point: a friend called me about 7-8 months back saying he took his older Honda to a dealer and they wanted $1200ish to replace the steering rack.

I had him explain the system and walked him through how the system works over the phone and had him check each part. He knows nothing about cars. He got to the reservoir and found the level was low. He bought s $6 bottle of power steering fluid and it has been fine ever since.

So. this is an obvious case of the dealer trying to fleece someone who knows nothing about cars. The dealer should have checked the fluid and who knows if they did or not. Irregardless theIr "fix" was for something that would take the maximum amount of chargeable hours. Not good and unfortunately It'soften the norm with dealers. Dealers don't make their profit selling cars, it's through the service shop.

 

[notazombie]

"There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer"

Wish I could believe that but after seeing some of my friends spend hundreds and hundreds of $$ needlessly replacing parts they did not need because it did not solve the problem, the idiots at the dealership finally luck into the tight part and fix it. But, what about the 800 bucks just spent that did not solve the problem and your telling me that was not purposefully fraud? There have been literally hundreds of documented cases of out and out fraud by every level of repair shop from dealerships on down in the media.

So I 100% disagree with the point there is no upside. CASH IN THERE POCKETS AND OUT OF YOUR POCKET is a pretty large upside for them and mark my words they dont give a darn if you ever come back. Most large repairs are a one time thing so they "get it while they can", and that is when you are there.

Here are two examples out of many from my own experience, one 25 yrs ago and one 3 months ago. Once we had a 1992 Honda accord, we took it to a local shop that was part of a national chain. There was a noise coming from the left front caliper. Their estimate for a complete brake job, 1900.00 yes that is right, nineteen hundred bucks. They even gave me a printed estimate and did that with a straight face and yes I knew better haha. I took it to another local shop and they removed a rock lodged in where the pads are where the piston contacts the brake pad and said your "good to go", no charge.

Go ahead and try to convince me this $1900 estimate was legitimate and it really would have cost $1900.00 to do a complete brake job. BTW I still got that estimate in my records some place, I kept it.

Next example, Recently my wife took her car in for a brake job and they hit her for 750.00. this was a local place I trusted. What happened? They conned here into letting them replace the calipers in addition to the rotors and pads because she said she wanted the car to be "safe" So they said well at 60k miles those calipers need replacing so they put a set of crap rebuilt carpers on the car that flopped around and rattled because the holes the caliper rides on where over size and they did not bother checking them when the rebuilt the old calipers they installed on the car.

I removed the calipers, diagnosed the problem went down told them what i found and we argued and went around and around. Finally I said lets go for a ride, did what it took to make it THUNK THUNK THUNK and said look man, I do not care what you say it did not make that thunk before and your going to fix it so it does not make it or else. He ended up ordering another set of rebuilt calipers and putting those on. I had asked them for my original calipers back and said I will pay the core charge just give me my damn OEM calipers back, he claimed they were already sent off to the re-builders.

Go ahead and try and tell me that 2012 Subaru really did need new calipers with 60k miles on it? No it did not. None of these rip off artist gave a crap about "retaining our business", just getting as deep into our pockets as we would let them.

If you really want to believe "There is absolutely no upside in fleecing a customer" then you go right ahead but your not going to convince me, I got a life time of experience spanning 40 yrs with these retards and I will walk through broken glass to avoid them. So will most of my friends who have had attempts to "retain their business" by being gouged as hard as possible by these fine local repair shops and dealerships.

That last brake job was done at a place I trusted, the exact place that saved us from the 1900 ripoff attempt 25 yrs before but I'll not go back to them again after this BS the pulled with the $750 brake job that should have been $350. They did nothing to diagnose the OEM calipers, just replaced them. Where they leaking no, where they cracked? no. There where no problems, they just straight up lied to my wife using the trigger word "SAFETY" to make a much bigger profit off her. My wife is vary smart but she will believe a minimum wage idiot at a repair shop or tire shop if they tell her something must be replaced for "safety".

BTW, reason she did not want me to do that brake job? I was really busy with work. The vary next week I did a complete brake job on my 2006 Tacoma with brembo rotors and top quality pads and new brake fluid. Took an afternoon and I said to wife see, you should have just told me you wanted a brake job, would have only taken one afternoon. She could care less, just shrugged and walked away. WTF? So what if it would have been 3k you were taken for, would that exceed your tolerance level for being screwed over? I been married to her for 40 yrs and still am not able to understand female logic??? or.. lack thereof.

I am not saying there are no honest repair shops out there, hahaha, I am saying they are not the rule, they are the exception. See exception example below.

I sponsored a race car on the west side about 10 yrs ago when i was doing business websites, free racing website for my biz name on both sides of his car and they guy who raced also had a auto repair shop and he was a devout christian, no really he was and I know the difference I was dragged to church every weekend for the first 18 yrs of my life and could finish any sermon from "the meek shall inherit the earth" to the most "fire and brimstone your all gonna burn in h-e-L-L" you could name.

I had enough "religion" for the rest of my life. I'm ok with god, just not with church and preachers. So after dealing with Mr. race car guy for some years I would trust him explicitly with any of my cars where I to want/need work done. Sadly he had a hart attack and passed so he is fixing cars for god now. For some reason his wife begged me to keep the racing website online after he passed so I am. Racing for Jesus Ministries

~

It would appear that you missed my point. I didn't say that fraud doesn't exist and that mistakes aren't made. My experience with the industry is that outright fraud is rare and shotgunning parts is frowned upon.

So, the first shop, 25 years ago, got greedy on a quote and lost the sale and their time altogether. While it may have been a ridiculously high quote, they didn't rip you off if you didn't pay them to do the work.
The more recent shop installed some subpar parts then had to do the job again for free, all the while having an "I know more than you" customer in their face who is now telling anyone who'll listen that they're scammers.
Where is the upside for them again?

 

[bolus]

I had a BMW made mini cooper. The headgasket started to fail. Asked dealer what they charge to replace it. $5000 (in 2010 dollars). F that, I can do a headgasket. Get the book on it.

Steps:
- Take the the entire font of the car off - everything in front of the front axle. This includes draining all the fluids since you are taking the radiator and the oil cooler off as well.
- Remove the cylinder head using two specialized tools from BMW costing $500 each.
- nope

sold the car.

You know what a joy was to work on? An Ariel Atom. Need to change the crank pulley? well just sit down next to the rear tire and grab the wrench.

 

[NCW_Robert]

It would appear that you missed my point. I didn't say that fraud doesn't exist and that mistakes aren't made. My experience with the industry is that outright fraud is rare and shotgunning parts is frowned upon.

So, the first shop, 25 years ago, got greedy on a quote and lost the sale and their time altogether. While it may have been a ridiculously high quote, they didn't rip you off if you didn't pay them to do the work.
The more recent shop installed some subpar parts then had to do the job again for free, all the while having an "I know more than you" customer in their face who is now telling anyone who'll listen that they're scammers.
Where is the upside for them again?

I think your confusing these people I was talking about with people smart enough to think that far ahead and ask themselvess what is the upside. Trust me these guys dont know an upside from a downside or side by side and they dont care to.

 

[Lilhigbee]

Sounds like we have the makings of a new video game, "Grand Theft Auto Repair".

 

[Lesliet]

Sounds like we have the makings of a new video game, "Grand Theft Auto Repair".

I've thought it might be fun to make a video game about auto repair, where you play a shop owner. There would be random things that mess you up, like:

"customer rides around on the tech's shoulders glaring at everyone, -1 to morale"

" customer brought own parts, and they don't fit. No one has the right part locally, lose a turn".

" car you repaired last month is back, something unrelated failed. Customer is SURE it's your fault. Repair it anyway, for " customer retention", -2 to finances"

" customer had you do $2000 worth of work to a $300 car, despite your best advice. Now car has been sitting in the lot, taking up space, for over a month. They're not answering your calls. -2 to lot capacity. -2 to finances"


Also, random good things like :

"Customer brought donuts! +2 to tech morale!"

" Customer was super happy with you fitting in his repair at 5 minutes til 5 on Friday, and told all his friends! +5 to demand!"



I've always wanted to show up at a restaurant with my own eggs, and ask for a discount on an omelette. " But Doc, I have a kidney right here, that you can put in! That should save me at least 5 grand, right? "

 

[notazombie]

How many minus points is spending $90 on a special socket to do a job that pays 2 hours, then only using that socket twice in 10 years?

 

[Lazyfaire]

When that fing disaster of a 6.0 engine came out, I bought an 03 F250 with out doing enough research. It ran pretty good for about 20,000 or so then it all went to hell. Took it to a Ford dealer who did this and that, ran better for a while then went south again, and they said they just could not determine what was wrong with it. Took it to a truck shop, they said they had not work on the POS 6.0 but would give it a go. 2 weeks and $ 6,000 later they had it somewhat fixed.

Had to lift the cab to replace one of the injector pumps, had to wipe and reflash the brain a lot of crap. It ran pretty decent, but I sold it just because. The intelligence level of some of those "mechanics" was a bit questionable at the Ford garage. Worst buy of my life. Meanwhile my current 97 F 250 7.3 keeps purring along at 198,000.

True mechanics are few and far between anymore in dealerships. Most peeps in the back are 'technicians' trained to change oil and such. Oh for the old days to be able to sit atop the fenders with your feet in the engine well...... Mazda used to have the engine oil filters upside down on a stalk on top of the engine. Had to give it 15 seconds to refill with oil every time you started it but soooo easy to change! Progress moved it down underneath the engine up behind a frame bracket......Grrrr

 

[Lazyfaire]

This is the mech work I do now:

View attachment 658019

See all that black stuff - the shredded stuff is ground cover previous owner laid down, the plastic a sheet of plastic that blew into the grass. When the grass is above your waist, it is hard to see these things while mowing. I spent more time untangling them from the flail than actually mowing. Still prefer this to working on modern cars.

Still trying to figure out what the creeper is doing out there. Do you have a lift for the unit?