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I had a rather large group of friends over yesterday and all were invited to bring weapons to fire. We went down the road and set up a 50 yard and a 200 yard target. My own range is only 100 yards.

We also had a pretty darned good barbecue. :s0155:

Some guys brought hunting rifles and handguns, but the bulk of the long guns fired and sighted in, etc. were AKM's, AR-15's and a few AR-10's. There were a couple of AK-74's.

I got very discouraged with the lack of accuracy from the AKM's and some of them even had expensive optics. (Why, I'll never know.)

I went home and grabbed my Dad's 60 year old Marlin 30-30 and with iron sights shot the best group of all the AKM's. (sandbags.)

IMHO an AKM is nothing more than a semi-auto 30-30 but lacking the accuracy.

The AR's are deadly accurate. A couple of AK-74's were deadly.

OK, flame away. :s0114:

Cliff: :D
 
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No flames coming out of me.
I say to each there own.
And I own an AK that does very well at 100 yards. :)
And for an urban defensive weapon, I will stick with it.:s0155:
Dave
 
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No flames coming out of me.
I say to each there own.
And I own an AK that does very well at 100 yards. :)
And for an urban defensive weapon, I will stick with it.:s0155:
Dave

OK, good answer. Now, if an AK is an effective "urban" defensive weapon, WHY do some of the guys spend more on optics than they did on the gun?

Why not stick with a good set of iron sights which are good within the (limited) range of the gun? :D
 
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I think some try to over do what an AK is meant to be.
They might like the TactaCOOL look? Lots of add on plasteek out there.
ME? Iron sights.
Dave
 
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Now you did it. All those cave-dwelling Taliban are going to read this, switch to Marlin 30-30s and really kick our troops' collective asses. :s0114:

Keith
 
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Now you did it. All those cave-dwelling Taliban are going to read this, switch to Marlin 30-30s and really kick our troops' collective asses. :s0114:

Keith

LOL. Good one. I've read that a lot of them are switching to AK-74's though.

Cliff
 
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LOL. Good one. I've read that a lot of them are switching to AK-74's though.

Cliff

If I remember correctly, the only countries that officially issue 5.45x39 are Russia and the Soviet successor states. I believe most other countries in the world still use 7.62x39 as a matter of course.

(Actually, AKs really don't suck. Its usually the owners who suck at shooting with open sights :) )

Keith
 
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If I remember correctly, the only countries that officially issue 5.45x39 are Russia and the Soviet successor states. -snip-

Keith

I don't think the talibangers are into "official." I think they get what they want, maybe even from Eastern block countries who don't like us all that much. :cool:
 
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Gee, did I start something here, LOL. (He says, looking so innocent.)

Well...I wasn't singling you out. Its obvious you can shoot. I was just speaking of AK owners in general. Usually its the guys with all the tacticool crap hung all over their rifles.

Keith
 
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Well...I wasn't singling you out. Its obvious you can shoot. I was just speaking of AK owners in general. Usually its the guys with the tacticool crap hung all over the rifles.

Keith

But, you don't really believe most AKM's are as accurate as an AR, do you? :s0155:

Cliff
 
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No. But I'm happy with anything under 4 moa using open sights and surplus ammo. That's a 100% chance of a hit on a chest-sized object at 500 yards.

Keith
 
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No. But I'm happy with anything under 4 moa using open sights and surplus ammo. That's a 100% chance of a hit on a chest-sized object at 500 yards.

Keith

Hmmmmm. AKM round at 500 yards. :confused:

4 moa at 500 yards is 20 inches off, m/l, and that can be in any direction. That's IF you hold over far enough, like lobbing it over the Empire State Building. :D

1 moa at 500 yards is about 5 inches for a group. Hmmmmm. :)

American servicemen have to qualify with 5.56 M16 at 500 yards. :)

I hear the Talibangers TRY to qualify with AK's at 500 yards, but wind up just digging small shallow holes at 200 yards. :D
 

saxon

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as far as
the owners who suck at shooting with open sights
this is true.
almost every one i know has a hunting rifle with a scope and when we go shooting if they have to use iron sights they (the shooter) suck.
all guns are inherently accurate to some degree it is the shooter that makes them in accurate.
With all my friends I used to place bets take the rifle they use all the time no matter what sight system
Give me at least 20 rounds to get the feel of the rifle and I will out shoot them with their own rifle,
Man I used to make some good money.
Ask the guy on the ground why they like the AK over the M16 in house clearing
Or the nam vets who couldn't hit jack in the tall grass with a 16 but had to duck because the AK was cutting the grass gun's are tools and each tool has a purpose,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
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How about those with .22lr's with iron sights who can drive nails? Knock about 4 ground squirrels off a mound at 50 yards with a semi-auto before the critters even react? Try me on with my Nylon 66.

I thought most guys grew up with pellet guns and BB guns and .22's with iron sights? I didn't even own a scope until I was in my early 20's. I did the big splurge and bought myself a like-new Ruger M77 in .270 with a Leopold Gold Ring 2x7 on it used for $200 flat at a new/used gun store. I still have it.

Anyone else remember Kennedy's Guns on Riverside across from what's now the mall (in Medford) back in the day? :) Old Bob was quite a guy. I still miss him.
 
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Heh heh. We always seem to be getting into these conversations, don't we Gunner ;) ?

With my standard of never shooting less than a 5-shot group to gauge accuracy, I am quite satisfied with 4moa using open sights when considering the combined effective range of both the cartridge being shot and my poor eyesight (which is quite poor). Say...150-200 yards for a .22, 250-300 yards for a 7.62x39 round, 500-600 yards for a 7.62x51, x54r or x63. Remember, I'm talking open sights here. If people can routinely hit man-sized targets past those ranges with open sight rifles, then they're better shots than I am...I can't do it.

Also, groups in a properly sighted rifle will be hitting center mass, and at 500 yards, a 20" 5-shot group will still have hit that 20" target 100% of the time.

With my scoped rifles using surplus ammo, I'm happy with 1.5 to 2moa, although I've got several that beat that, including an original M91/30 PU sniper using regular '86 Czech lightball.. Of course if I reloaded for each rifle, I'd expect that to be even better, but that's not a field I have any interest in.

I should also say that almost all of my rifles are untouched original military surplus (US, Finn and other Combloc), and a few clones. I have no modern rifles other than a Greek SAR-8 and a 10/22. No bedding, no tuning, no barrel fluting. That matters when comparing my results with modern weaponry.

Keith
 
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Of course a marksman will shoot better with an optic, but what if your optic breaks, fogs up, loses zero in the field or is lost? Its always good to be proficient with all aspects of the weapon you choose to use.

Keith
 
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