.38 Defense load advice

[taylor]

I have a S&W #64 K frame and I want to develope a good lead defense load, I can't decide between 120gn or 158gn lead hollowpoints, I always believed the lighter lead bullet would expand more with higher velocity but the FBI load used a 158gn HP. So which is better for a defensive load? Also which powder would you recommend?

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[DizzyJ]

This is just me, but I would only use factory Ammo for a multitude of reasons.

 

[Tlock]

This is just me, but I would only use factory Ammo for a multitude of reasons.

Im with you on that. I cary the same rounds the oregon state police use

 

[nammac]

135 gr Gold Dots and don't look back…

Also agree, use factory ammo for self defense, less to be called into question should you need to defend yourself.

 

[BrandonQuixote]

What police use isn't based on terminal effectiveness alone. They have to consider prior contracts, funding and many other factors. Blindly choosing what cops use is retarded. What's the barrel length? soft lead HP will probably expand but even with the heavier weight, you might not get good penetration if it expands too quickly upon entering. Depending on your bullet design and lead composition, you might get piss-poor expansion and too much penetration. Shoot some water jugs to give the projectile the best chance of expanding.

Theres a few good reasons the FBI dont use 38 special anymore. That being said, its killed a lot of people, so it does in-fact work. But technology has changed A LOT since 158gr lead 38 special was used by the FBI. Youre probably MUCH better off with a JHP from one of the big names. Gold dots and Hydra shocks are a good place to start. If your dead set on using home-rolled, you got a lot of testing to do.

To my knowledge, there has never been a documented. case where using home made self defense loads have been used against the defendant. Having a "You're fuked" back plate on your Glock may draw the Jury's ire though.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I have a S&W #64 K frame and I want to develope a good lead defense load, I can't decide between 120gn or 158gn lead hollowpoints, I always believed the lighter lead bullet would expand more with higher velocity but the FBI load used a 158gn HP. So which is better for a defensive load? Also which powder would you recommend?

A few things to ponder...

Contrary to popular belief, a load doesn't need to reach Mach 15 to perform.

Always go for penetration over expansion. If the bullet opens up too quickly, it acts like a parachute and doesn't get needed penetration.

Begs the discussion...how many threats were stopped by expansion vs penetration?
Spoiler alert...all threats were stopped by penetration...just think of, and @Andy54Hawken will appreciate this...musket balls...penetration with little expansion, yet they've done the job thousands of times. If the round expands, celebrate. If it does not expand, it doesn't mean the bullet failed.

Example, the Hornaday XTP...it's a late bloomer, meaning it gets the important penetration before expansion happens.

For 38 Special 125-140gr is a good grain weight range to look at.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Taking a look at SWC Lead options in bullets and loadings may be helpful here.
Andy

 

[orygun]

I think a 158gr SWC pushed by a stout load of Unique would be a good starting point.
Personally I would use a JHP, either 125gr or 158gr.

I have zero concerns about having reloaded ammo in a carry gun. Right now the three guns I might carry have factory ammo, but my 357s often carry reloads.

 

[oremike]

For the 38 Special revolvers I like the Lehigh 100gr extreme defense bullets and for a more conventional bullet, the 125gr TC's.

 

[WillametteWill]

Blindly choosing what cops use is retarded.

As Mas Ayoob says (to the effect), don't just choose what cops use, select your defensive ammo based on similar criteria. With appropriate penetration and expansion, you are more likely to stop the fight with fewer rounds fired, fewer rounds means less chance of a miss, overpenetration is less likely, and ricochet danger is reduced compared to FMJ. It may be that you end up choosing what LE agencies have, but the 'why' is what is important.

To my knowledge, there has never been a documented.

There are many factors as to why ammo selection is important and it is hard to pin down specific cases related to what may be considered miniate, but hand rolled defensive rounds can easily be spun and used against us. Think of it this way. Binger used evil FMJ bullets against Kyle during his case. Yes, Kyle chose these horrible rounds to kill and maim. Just imagine if he would have been using Hornady/Nosler defensive rounds or (clutching of pearls) reloads. Items like this get used all the time by unethical prosecutors creating a no-win situation. But with competent counsel, you can counter many points...but handloads will be more difficult to counter than using an industry-standard ammo.

Always go for penetration over expansion. If the bullet opens up too quickly, it acts like a parachute and doesn't get needed penetration.

Good points. In ballistics testing I've done in FBI type gel, the same bullet in a +P load often penetrates less because the parachute opens faster. I've seen this replicated in other tests as well. Super expanding .380 ammo has exceptionally low penetration.

We conduct a defensive handgun ballistics workshop at our club discussing these issues and then shoot ammo students bring into 10% ballistics gel so they can see how their ammo performs. There are other factors such as what happens when you shoot through heavy clothing or glass. There are no absolutes, but more information is better than less.

 

[Tlock]

Ill stick by my Speer gold dot in my every day carry.....

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Another fan of factory ammo for defense and just to be "that guy" I really like the old 158gr LSWCHP +p FBI load not because I believe it to have magical stopping powers but because it just feels right in a mid size 38 like a Ruger Six or S&W Model 10, kind of like 230 gr hardball from a full size 1911. But that being said, if I was handed a gun loaded with any of the current factory self defense loads in the 110 to 158 gr range and the gun was sighted in for them I wouldn't really give it a second thought.
Not much of a fan of the exotic stuff, like the ultra light high velocity rounds, but that may just be post Glazer safety slug traumatic stress disorder from shooting a couple rounds out of a snub nose 38 at an indoor range 40 years ago

 

[dangerranger60]

148 gr Wad Cutters work best for me out of a 642 airweight. From this short a barrel to get an expanding bullet to work takes a +P+ velocity or a much lighter bullet to get enough velocity to open every time.
But if I were shooting a 3" or longer barrel I might change my mind. when you get to 4" of barrel the advantage is clearly on expanding bullets.
DR

 

[DizzyJ]

148 gr Wad Cutters work best for me out of a 642 airweight. From this short a barrel to get an expanding bullet to work takes a +P+ velocity or a much lighter bullet to get enough velocity to open every time.
But if I were shooting a 3" or longer barrel I might change my mind. when you get to 4" of barrel the advantage is clearly on expanding bullets.
DR

How much does barrel length matter in a revolver?

 

[orygun]

How much does barrel length matter in a revolver?

Depends on how short it is. Below 3" there's a huge velocity loss. At 4" things start to step up and at 6" you've gotten about 80-85% of what velocity is available from a handgun.
I carry and shoot a 357 3". Not what others may, but I am confident in it's ability to stop a threat.

 

[TDH]

For the 38 Special revolvers I like the Lehigh 100gr extreme defense bullets and for a more conventional bullet, the 125gr TC's.

They have some very good designs. If I don't have factory rounds for a carry gun, I use Lehigh and make my own for that caliber. I used to only carry Hornady Critical, but it became very sparse for a few years, and expensive. I'm not sure anyone is going to question your ammo choice, but that's just one opinion.

 

[oremike]

They have some very good designs. If I don't have factory rounds for a carry gun, I use Lehigh and make my own for that caliber. I used to only carry Hornady Critical, but it became very sparse for a few years, and expensive. I'm not sure anyone is going to question your ammo choice, but that's just one opinion.

It would be interesting to see what they'd do with me. I'm a legal licensed ammo manufacturer and shoot my ammo.

 

[dangerranger60]

It would be interesting to see what they'd do with me. I'm a legal licensed ammo manufacturer and shoot my ammo.

My own experience with Lehigh's fluted bullets is the faster you push them the better they work. In calibers like 10 mm, 357 mag, 357 sig, and 38 super that operate on the high end of handgun velocity they work great.
In 38 spl standard pressure they don't do anything special. Out of a 4 or 6" barrel and +P pressure you start to see them start to open wound channels.
If I were going to try them in a 38 spl , I would look at the lighter bullets pushed as fast as I could get them.
I was testing them into wet newspaper, You should see the crater the top end loads of a 357 mag made! DR

 

[osprey]

My wife has a sw model 49 bodyguard that she used to carry. I did a lot of research on defensive loads for it, including my own rudimentary ballistic testing. I found regular old rem 125gr golden sabers to be a good match for it.

 

[Greg S]

I've got a MP Molds.com style Keith173 PB HP mold (158 HP). I'm looking for a 357 load for 1000 1050 out of a 2" tube and 1150 max out of a 4" tube. Considered unique but then found HS6. Snubs, 135 Gold Dots all day long if you can find them. Rarer then hens teeth these day. There is a group buy going on over at Castboolits.com that is on hold right now for a 135 Plain Base and GC mold that is a dimensional copy of the 135 Gold Dot that I wish would go through. Promising looking mold for a cheap clone for range play.

Edit to Add:

As far as the best weight bullet to use for SD, the 125 SJHP has a long history of success as a 4" duty load but was later steered away from in K frame guns because of cracking the K frame forcing cones on the bottom of the barrel where they are thin for clearing the cylinder hub. This problem is what brought to the market the S&W 686 so departments could continue to use the 125 load without cracking forcing cones.

The FBI went with the 158 SWCHP because they were looking for a load that met their terminal ballistics standard in all 38 cal guns (either 38 or 357) 2" on up I believe in a 38 Special case I believe.