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.30 Cal. Carbine Question

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by AlphaCoyote, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. AlphaCoyote

    AlphaCoyote Oh, I get around. New Member

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    I'd like to tap some of the expertise out there. Are examples from some manufacturers of .30 Cal. Carbines more sought after than others? Underwood vs. IBM, for example? Do people care other than for curiosity reasons? Or are condition, date of manufacture, and history the critical factors?

    Thank you for any responses.
     
  2. BSG 75

    BSG 75 Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The two maker that seem to command a slight premium all else being equal are Rock-Ola and Winchester. Rock-Ola because they were some of the fewest produced (because as a jukebox manufacturer they were in a little over their head and struggled to produce) and Winchester because it is a Winchester, and because they originated the design. They were the second-highest producer (Inland Div. of GM made the most).

    People in the tech industry seem to be drawn to IBM, so they are probably third most popular, but only very slightly above the rest.

    There are basically two categories of USGI M1 Carbines: original, and rebuilt. Refurbished/rebuilt/rearsenaled are far more common. The M1 Carbine had a long service life (from World War II to Korea to Vietnam) with the US, as well as being distributed as military aid to US allies, so most of them have been rebuilt/upgraded one or more times. The rebuilt carbines actually make better shooters because they have upgraded parts. The M1 Carbine was rushed into production and into combat under wartime pressure and without an adequate development period, just like the M16. Several improvements were made after experience was gained. Many were converted to selective-fire after World War II (renamed the M2 Carbine) and that required improvements in the stock and magazine catch, for example.

    For rebuilt carbines (the vast majority) condition and price are the most important factors.

    By the way, here are my M1 Carbines. The first one I got was my Winchester from the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) and it is my best shooter. My second was an IBM, also from the CMP. Both have been rebuilt. After that I concentrated on original carbines and I got whatever I came across. That's how I ended up with 3 more IBMs: not because I was seeking out IBMs, but that's what I have encountered.

    c2bec55f.jpg
    Underwood

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    3 different IBM carbines

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    Standard Products

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    Inland (Bavaria Forestry Police)

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    Inland (6.33 million serial number)

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    Winchester (CMP, spring tube receiver)

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    IBM (CMP, Auto-Ordnance subcontract receiver)
     
  3. AlphaCoyote

    AlphaCoyote Oh, I get around. New Member

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    That's very helpful. Thanks. I have an IBM (can't remember the date) that I'm pretty sure is orignal. Not as nice as yours in terms of condition. I might sell it. Not sure. Anyway, thanks.
     
  4. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    Research it here.....M1CarbinesInc.com
     
  5. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    Nice collection BSG 75, my drool bucket overfilled.

    I had a pile of carbines in the 70's and like a fool I sold them.
     
  6. TCOV

    TCOV OLYMPIC PENINSULA Active Member

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    My understanding of M1 Carbines is that there is really no way to tell if one is all "original" inless it was historically significant and had a paper trail. I believe one with proper period parts groups are called "correct" for the year of manufacture. I have a Rock-Ola that has some Rock-Ola parts acquired from other M1s and they are not original but correct.
    Nice collection BSG75.
     
  7. BSG 75

    BSG 75 Oregon Well-Known Member

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    All original carbines are "correct", but not all "correct" carbines are original. In fact, there has been so much parts-swapping going on I would say most "correct" carbines are not original.

    There is not usually a paper trail because USGI firearms were generally not legal "bringback" items like captured enemy weapons. They were hidden in duffel bags or otherwise surreptitiously brought home. So you have to judge by the patina and look of the carbine. Parts that were not originally installed but were replaced to "correct" the carbine usually stick out.
     
  8. TCOV

    TCOV OLYMPIC PENINSULA Active Member

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    BSG 75 I see your line of thought and never considered GI duffel bag bringbacks. I would think those would be pretty rare. I saw that with weapons when I was in Vietnam, anything that fits in the bag or free shipping box. By paper trail I mean a carbine issued to someone famous enough that records were kept and those are probably in museums now. We know that only receivers were serial numbered on carbines and garands and when I hear a rifle is all original I think of my younger friend who showed me his Tanker Garand that his uncle brought back from the Pacific and passed on to him. It took about 30 seconds to see the weld lines where the receiver had been put together from scrap after the war. I reminded him that sometimes old uncles told bs stories to young boys cause they knew they wanted to hear them and it wasn't disrespectful. He sold it for a thousand dollars but not to me.
     
  9. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Since most of the manufacturers of carbines used parts from one to four other manufacturers of carbines or even companies that did not assemble complete weapons. And the fact that weapons were run through the armory even during WWII almost all of them after WWII then some before and after Korea then before and after Vietnam then after they were given to various allies they also rebuilt them. The when the various importers brought in containers of them from Korea, Israel, Germany etc. they were redone again.

    I would venture the average carbine in civilian hands right now has been through an armory 4-5 times since some factory first put it in a wooden box for delievery to the military.

    Mine is an Inland receiver with a Inland General Motors barrel and a bunch of Winchester parts. NO clue on the stock no stampings are readable due to damage and rough handling not to mention my father inlaw rasping off the Korean Military painted serial number on the stock.

    SO I don't worry about what its worth only how it shoots. I'm about to put a NEW reproduction stock on it. Cause the last one who ever put on it is wasted.
     
  10. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    the distinction being "as manufactured" and "as issued" get craig reisch's book, I had a few chats with him back in the 90's when he did a lot of his research, depending on manufacturer and date revision parts were installed on newly made guns, other manufacturers parts were used for logistical purposes (some were just better at making some parts and had more, like barrels and bolts). it is a maze of information.
    as said before just worry about how it shoots
    cmp has barrels and stocks, new
    careful about who you get to work on it