What can you tell me about this old gun?

CLT65 · Sep 3, 2021

I bought this old front-loader today from another member here. I'm not a very knowledgeable black powder guy. I have several cap-and-ball revolvers and a cheap reproduction flintlock, but I'm certainly not an expert.

The seller (nice guy, by the way) said that as far as he knew, it was put together from a kit by a relative many years ago, but apparently there was some question that it may be antique. Several things about it scream mid-20th century project gun to me, so I bought it with that assumption. I do wonder though if perhaps the lock came from an older gun?

I knew I was buying a pig in a poke, given my ignorance, but I figured I couldn't go wrong for the price. It's a neat looking wall-hanger if nothing else. I was hoping to fire it, but unfortunately I think it is a wall hanger. The bore is pitted to where I can barely see rifling, and about an inch down in the bore are deep gouges on one side for about an inch, like someone ran in a steel rod and pounded on it. It's pretty bad and I don't think there's any fix short of re-boring or re-lining. Is there anyone that does that for muzzle-loaders, and any idea if this would be remotely worth it? The muzzle measures about .33" so I'm thinking a 32 cal?

Jbsheepdog · Sep 3, 2021

Oooooo Andy!? :s0162:

CLT65 · Sep 3, 2021

Good idea! @Andy54Hawken ??

drstrangelove · Sep 3, 2021

There is lots of steel thickness left in that barrel to have it drilled out to a larger caliber ie 45 or 50 cal and have rifling cut. The amount of patina suggests antique. A real Moore rifle goes for $1400. The cap blast deflection pan does suggest Italian or Spanish repro, however. My experience with 32cal Muzzleloading is not favorable. Little power and hard on ramrods. If it were an antique, all value would be lost working on it further. If confirmed repro and you want a shooter, go on Muzzleloading Forum and ask who does barrel recaliber. May not be cheap. I would think 200-300 bucks at least.
For a wall hanger, it has nice lines.

CLT65 · Sep 3, 2021

The tang sight seems a bit anachronistic to me. The stamping on the top of the barrel don't strike me as what you'd see on an original. The quality of the brass parts really look repro to me. Some of the screws are crooked and a little too modern.

The "patina" looks different in person. It may look like patina in the photos, but in person it looks very much like it had a bunch of rust from being fired and not cleaned up, and someone worked it over extensively with a fine wire wheel. If it were original (which I'm pretty certain it's not), scouring off rust with a wire wheel would have already destroyed a lot of value.

It is a nice looking wall hanger, and still worth it for the money, I think.

Andy54Hawken · Sep 4, 2021

Beautiful rifle for sure.

Looks to my eye like a 1850's - 1870's era Mid-West Sporting Rifle.
Mid-West as in Ohio , Indiana....

Moore Locks are somewhat common on rifles of this era and place.
As is the caliber.
Love the "Hex" marks on the muzzle...these were to keep your rifle from being "Witched".

The rear peep sight and flash guard suggests that this rifle was used as a match rifle till the influx of Italian replica rifles of the 1960's or so....

As far as shooting goes....
How is the breech and the overall sounds of the wood...?
These are things you need to look at before shooting...
How is the lock...does the hammer hold at full cock....?
Also note that some rifles of this time , did not have a half cock...
In any event , make sure the hammer holds in place....fairly easy fix if it don't.

Also did you run a rod all the way down the breech , to see if the rifle is unloaded...?
I wouldn't over worry 'bout the bore yet...with some cleaning it may still shoot good...after you look at the breech and stock.
I have done with good shooting with pitted and scared bores on rifles.

If you do shoot it...
A smaller than the norm ball and thinner patch maybe good....
Back in the day when these were the only rifles....they were loaded a lot less tight than how most folks load today.
Also it will be wise to make this a every once in awhile shooter ...not a everyday shooter.

Andy

Edit to add
It also appears to have been "cleaned" at some point in time...
which may account for the is it old or is it a 20th century rifle.
I saw this ad after the rifle was sold...you did well.
If I had seen the ad before you did....We'd be talking 'bout my new to me old rifle....

CLT65 · Sep 4, 2021

Really?? I would have bet dollars to donuts that it was a 20th century gun. That just shows how little I know on the subject. Cool. Thanks for the info Andy!

The trigger holds fine, squeeze hard on the rear trigger, and it sets the front trigger, then the front trigger is very light. One of the things that got me was how clean the metal is. For example, the tang sight has absolutely no finish, rust, or patina, inside or out. It's covered in fine pitting but otherwise absolutely bare, like it's been carefully wire-wheel scrubbed with a Dremel, or soaked in some kind of rust dissolving acid.

I have a bore scope that I checked it out with. I'll hook it up again and take a photo. There's a series of gouges maybe an inch long, along one side of the bore. It looks like at some point for some reason a steel rod was pounded in the bore. It's pretty rough. I have to wonder if a bullet would go past that with any kind of accuracy.

On the other hand, if it is actually an original I may just not worry about shooting it at all. I'd probably be better off to go buy a nice modern reproduction to shoot. I honestly was absolutely convinced that this was not the real thing. I feel bad for the guy I bought it from. We had the discussion about the possibility that it could be, neither of us was sure, but after looking it over I felt fairly sure it was a mid 20th century project.

Andy54Hawken · Sep 6, 2021

@CLT65 Glad to have been of some here here...if you have more questions , please feel free to ask .
Andy

coop44 · Sep 7, 2021

Get another barrel, duh

Andy54Hawken · Sep 7, 2021

The trouble with "Get another barrel , duh" is....

That this barrel was probably not made to existing ( modern ) barrel specs...
So any replacement barrel will , more than likely mean stock inletting , which can be tricky with 100 + year old stocks.

Plus the more you remove the barrel pin ( pins) the more wear on the pin holes ....which will cause issues as well.
Andy

tac · Sep 7, 2021

Bobby Hoyt is THE man to fresh out your barrel, something that was often done during the period we are looking at to extend the life of a favourite piece.

It WILL entail removing the barrel one more time, as Andy notes above, but it will be worth it. The only Bobby Hoyt re-bore I ever shot was a similar age rifle that was taken from .40cal to .45cal, and it shot like a new gun - which, to all intents and purposes, it was.

Figure on $300-400 for the work, although Andy can undoubtishly advise you better.

I've taken the liberty of posting the images over on another muzzleloading-specific site populated by some of the greatest living experts on muzzleloading firearms, as well as few builders of national renown - I'm sure that Andy has heard of Mike Brook and Dave Person.

tac · Sep 7, 2021

Quote - 'The tang sight seems a bit anachronistic to me.'

Remember that a good rifle was ALWAYS a good rifle, and worth improving for whatever reason. Lyman began making their tang sights, just like this one, in 1879, so that's still pretty old, I think you might agree.

Quote - 'The stamping on the top of the barrel don't strike me as what you'd see on an original. The quality of the brass parts really look repro to me. Some of the screws are crooked and a little too modern.'

The 'stamping' on top of the barrel has been chiselled with a V-shaped burin, a hand-held steel chisel a bit like an awl, and held in use the same way, but ground and hardened to enable it to cut into steel, or, in this case, high-grade wrought iron.

Addendum - I've found a John Spohn mentioned in a history of Pennsylvania post 1778, as a gunmaker. Might this gun have been made by a son or grandson, given that it is percussion and to me, at least, show no signs of having been converted from flint?

CLT65 · Sep 19, 2021

tac said:
I've taken the liberty of posting the images over on another muzzleloading-specific site populated by some of the greatest living experts on muzzleloading firearms, as well as few builders of national renown - I'm sure that Andy has heard of Mike Brook and Dave Person.

Thank you! Any opinions there?