Use of DF question

[FreshAir]

A friend sent me an article with the below scenario that made me wonder what the laws are in Or and WA. In this type of situation in Oregon or Washington would you have to warn before you shot? I hope i am never in such a spot but it would be nice to know what the law says about it?

You are shopping inside a store, out of sight of the front counter/register, when a robbery starts. You move cautiously until you can see the robber, standing with a gun pointed directly at the head of the cashier. He is completely unaware of you behind him. You are armed, and you have an ideal position and time for a precisely aimed shot into the back of the robber's head. In most states, the conditions for lethal-force employment are satisfied. The question was not could you, legally, take the shot without warning the robber (though in some areas it is not legal to do so; you must check laws in your area to be sure); it was, would you take the shot without warning?

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[JUSTIficatioN]

Personally I feel that in that situation your justified to shoot without warning, but "personal" is way different than "legal". I also would like to see some info on the legality of the use of deadly force in that scenario as I think about it every time I go into any kind of business. If you did yell something, that would most likely lead him to turn his (and his gun's) attention toward you which in my mind gives you justification to shoot.

 

[ZachS]

If you reasonably believe that the cashier's life is threatened, you can shoot.

 

[JAFO]

**** no.

What you are looking at might actually be the cashier who came out from behind the counter with his sidearm when the robber jumped up over it.

It might be another customer who is aiming his gun at the thief who is hiding behind the counter.

You don't know because you were out of site of the counter when it started. Use your head.

 

[NK777]

I would tell them to drop the gun and go from there. If the shooter turns around agressively or shoots the victim I'd take the shot but I wouldn't aim for the head ever. To easy to miss in the heat of the moment and if you do with a reasonable caliber it is most likely certain death for the shooter. IMHO it is not for me to decide who lives or dies. My goal is simply to eleminate the threat. If they die from rounds aimed center of mass so be it however. I'm just not into being the exacutioner. I don't want that blood on my hands. I know this sounds muddy but I'd rather nuetralize the threat without killing them out right, thus giving them the opertunity to live and repent. It's just what I'm most comfortable with and you may see things differently. Center of mass is not instant death like a shot to the head.

 

[RVNvet]

If you believe the clerk's life is in danger, you may use deadly force, but it's definitely not the thing to do in the described situation. You shoot the robber, he reflexively pulls the trigger, and you just escalated a robbery into a dead person and a possibly wounded or dead clerk. Only by hitting the brain stem do you make sure the robber goes limp and falls without discharging his weapon...would you want to take that chance?

And one other thing for the more bloodthirsty of our brethren...if you kill a human being, your entire life will change, as well as the lives of anyone involved (including your family), and you won't like it one bit.

Also, keep in mind one additional fact: "I read it on an internet forum, Your Honor!" does not make for a very good defense.

Max
Former LEO and homicide investigator

 

[Mutoman]

It seems like a scenario somewhat like this played out not long ago; I can't remember who, why, where, or when, but I do remember that the good Samaritan was shot after asking the bad guy to put down his gun.

The best possible outcome is to have the robber exit the store without hurting anyone; however it is a situational scenario that has many variables.

 

[Will]

With out knowing how the situation started the guy with the gun pointed at the clerk could be an undercover officer arresting the clerk who is wanted. IMHO unless you know with out question it's best to take a deffensive position and call 911. With luck if the guy is a robber he will take the money and run. Most stores ask there employees to comply if robbed so there is no reason to be a hero. I expect I would feel like dirt if the bad guy shoots the clerk but I think the odds are they will flee when they get the money.

The other thought that crossed my mine is how do you know the guy with the clerk is the only bad guy in the store? Clearly a lot to asses in a small window of time and the legal is part of it. I expect it is truly hard to know how you will react until your in that moment in time and I hope that none of us are ever in that situation.

 

[FreshAir]

The whole idea really got me thinking about a secondary aspect of a CHL I really had not spent quite as much time mentally preparing for. The main reason I made the decision to get mine (along with every other CHL holder) is obviously to protect my family and myself. But after having one you start to think about scenarios and how you would react. It's easy to imagine the little old blue haired lady being attacked in the park type of situation but the less obvious ( like the ones above) that you might stumble upon make you think about how you should or would react. Thanks to all for the responses.

 

[wichaka]

Am always amused when a question like this is asked, everyone flocks to the scenario and forgets what the OP is asking.


To answer the question for WA State, identifying or challenging the subject is only required when 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible.

 

[Will]

Am always amused when a question like this is asked, everyone flocks to the scenario and forgets what the OP is asking.


To answer the question for WA State, identifying or challenging the subject is only required when 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible.

No offense ment but your response is vague, if possible please expand on Both #1 and #2. IMHO I don't think the OP question has a simple answer, hence why I was drawn to the scenario, so many varriables to be factored in. With much respect the more I learn to more I understand so please if you can expand on your thoughts.

 

[Mutoman]

It is a scenario that most of us play over in our minds when considering concealed carry. What would we do? What are the variables? What are the repercussions of our actions? What happens if a restaurant gets robbed while we are having dinner with our family? Etc, etc....

I think it is healthy to hear all the different views an opinions on the subject; some are going to be vague and some are going to be quite detailed. Hopefully we can learn something from each.

 

[JAFO]

Am always amused when a question like this is asked, everyone flocks to the scenario and forgets what the OP is asking.


To answer the question for WA State, identifying or challenging the subject is only required when 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible.

The OP already decided he's taking the shot, according to his question, when the scenario as described is probably a no-shoot situation.

I don't think there are any RCW's that will outline any verbal communication required. Feel free to cite them if I'm wrong.

 

[wichaka]

It's not as vague as one would think.

Just run thru your mind any scenario you could ever think of, and apply what I stated.

In a CQB instance, and someone comes up to you on the street and demands your wallet or your life. Is a verbal challenge 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible in this instance?

Someone runs at you from quite a distance away threatening your life... 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible?

What are the repercussions of our actions? This why I very much advocate that everyone find a good attorney that is well versed in use of force issues, sit down with them for an hour+ ...the best money you'll ever spend.

What happens if a restaurant gets robbed while we are having dinner with our family? Etc, etc....

One needs to think...Do I want to put my family in jeopardy with starting a possible fire fight, or just sit back and be a good observer?
Are you and the family being threatened? That may change things.

 

[nitetime]

Here's the whole article.. It's a good read and really makes you think.

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/12/26/if-you-shoot-them-they-will-die/

 

[wichaka]

The scenario he gives has a couple of things he did not mention;

1) If the suspect has his finger on the trigger of his gun, while pointing it at the employee...will your verbal challenge give a startled response, and in turn have him yank the trigger out of being startled.

2) If your shot is not placed properly, again he in turn could pull the trigger and shoot the employee.

If you're going to take the shot, you must know within yourself you can make the shot.

 

[tionico]

the way I read the scenario, I am in the store and can observe the perp entering, hear the conversation/orders to the supposed cashier.... and I saw him at the checkout when I walked in, so I know he's supposed to be there. The guy with the gun is no cop, cause he'd be speaking orders to the cashier.. hands up, you're under arrest, you have the right to remain silent.... that sort of thing. Not likely he'd start out with his weapon drawn..... at the ready, maybe. He'd also be identifyinng himself as the cop he is. Rule that one out.

If I were certain the guy with the gun is in process of a crime, he's got the gun pointed at the clerk's head, finger on trigger...... and I could absolutely, unobserved, take the shot and be certain I'd make it, I WOULD shoot him in the head.... the ONLY way he'd crumple and be neutralised. One word, he'd react.... HOW????? Center Mass, the nervous system could react.. HOW???? The heart can continue to pump blood and the body continue to function for something like fifteen seconds after a center mass hit. Plenty of time for the perp to get off his shot at the clerk, and me as well. No, if I am to do anything, it must be instantly drop the guy.... and then only if I am certain I can in one, clean shot.

I CAN shoot,legally, to neutralise an immediate threat to someone else in my proximity. No warning is needed in Washington, for certain. I could also, legally, sit tight, let the perp do whatever he wants. but having the means to stop him precludes that, to my mind. In putting the clerk at such risk, he puts his own life forfeit. HIS decision, not mine. and these days, with so many considering human life as disposable, many such perps would not hesitate to dust the clerk, even after they've got the money. Dead clerk equals no testimony. Gang rules these days also sometimes require prospective members to kill someone, even for no reason. Why not kill someone AND get some bucks? Sick world, yes.....

one other possibility, which I'd consider if I was certain I could pull it off.... but ONLY if I was absolutely certain.... hit the hand with the gun, knocking it out and damaging the hand so it was not functional. Clerk cannot get shot, nor can I, perp most likely neutralised....... but not dead. Not easy, but, depending on precisely how things were laid out, a possibility. Worthy of consideration. He;d have to be holding his gun hand steady (many would be waving it about wildly, making that shot impossible), havae it in plain view with a predictable and safe backdrop (the ball would almost certainly carry on past his hand... unless it hit the gun itself, then it might ricochet) Maybe try and take out his wrist, just behind the heel of his hand. Gun goes flying, he's out of commission, and in incredible pain.... then aim at his chest and start barking orders to subdue him. Any more attempts at aggression, take him out. But this time, no gun in hand, which radically changes the situation. There are a couple dozen what if's and this not that details that, taken together, could radically alter my options.......

 

[RVNvet]

Have you thought about the possible get-away driver outside, armed and ready to come in and defend his cohort?

Too many variables to take a shot, unless things escalated.

A couple of nights ago I was in Dotty's, the gambling place, on Murray and Allen. They've been arm-robbed a couple of times, as have most of the other Dotty's. A casual friend of mine was the cashier one time they got hit, and she told me afterward that one thought that went through her head was that she wished I was there when it went down. I got to talking with the new clerk (who I did not know) about the robbery situation, and told him that if a robber came in while I was there, I wouldn't do anything until he left (aside from prepare a good mental image as to description), but, being a former LEO, would probably pull my CW and follow him outside, to try to get a plate number and/or direction he went. Of course, if he turned on me and started to point a weapon, that would change things.

Max

 

[Will]

It's not as vague as one would think.

Just run thru your mind any scenario you could ever think of, and apply what I stated.

In a CQB instance, and someone comes up to you on the street and demands your wallet or your life. Is a verbal challenge 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible in this instance?

Someone runs at you from quite a distance away threatening your life... 1) Reasonable or 2) Feasible?

What are the repercussions of our actions? This why I very much advocate that everyone find a good attorney that is well versed in use of force issues, sit down with them for an hour+ ...the best money you'll ever spend.

What happens if a restaurant gets robbed while we are having dinner with our family? Etc, etc....

One needs to think...Do I want to put my family in jeopardy with starting a possible fire fight, or just sit back and be a good observer?
Are you and the family being threatened? That may change things.

I guess that I don't understand the difference between reasonable and feasible So much depends on the moment in time. I have an attorney that I expect could handle this type of issue but don't know if I could ever run all the "what if's" past him in advance. My wallet or my life with a gun pointed at me, is easy take my wallet, I hope they run away at that point. No matter what I do it would be hard to get the upper hand if they have me at gun point. Now if they claim to have a gun but not in view/pointed at me the senerio changes. IMHO the senerio is special each time, might require my immeadiate action to save a life or might be best to be well informed witness.

That fine line can only be answered when/if you are put into that situation.

 

[JAFO]

Let us all pray that we are not at the same store where tionico is trying to shoot the gun out of a bad guy's hand like some television hero.