Trust Question (invalidated?)

[wired]

As soon as I read the title of this thread "Trust Question (invalidated?)" I knew this would be a "David M. Goldman Gun trust lawyer" scare topic post. Advice from a lawyer on creating a trust is a good thing, "David M. Goldman Gun trust lawyer" on the other hand is a propaganda artist with self interests at heart, not the good of the gun community at heart.

Yep. That guy

 

[coctailer]

You're missing the point. A bare bones trust can pass muster in certain states. In others, it doesn't and it can get rejected.

How is this possible? The ATF doesn't care what state the trust came from.

They only care if the item is legal in that state, and if the trust is valid.

Why would a Form 4 get approved for Oregon and rejected for Florida using the exact same trust template?

 

[wired]

States have different requirements for trusts. A trust that is legal in Oregon might not be legal in Florida. If the trust is valid in Washington that doesnt necessarily mean that it will be valid in Florida. The ATF is reviewing trusts these days to see if they are state compliant before approving the form 1 or 4.

 

[huntpotter]

The the ready made, fill in the blanks trust worked for my first .223 can. I can't see why it wouldn't work for eveybody else. Like other posters said, if you are actually putting a house, and a business interest, and you have kids to split it up, then yes, get a lawyer to do it. But for my 1 and only (to date) NFA item, in the trust, it's all I needed to get it done.

 

[rayd8]

This thread really picked up, thanks guys! I'm still in the research (internet, you guys) phase, so I do have a lot of questions. My limited experience with the legal system has not been pleasant, so want to make sure I cross all my t's and dot the i's.

What you're reading is a lawyer who is involved in trying to get new business.

It does sound like a scare tactic to get new business and I'm sure he charges a premium for being an NFA expert.

I deal NFA stuff all day, everyday.

How much different is NFA stuff from regular regarding the actual transfer legality (I'm an Oregon resident)? Say I want a Noveske/LMT SBR that I don't want to engrave (Form 4 route). Do I place the order with Noveske, they give me the SN#, they 'hold' the item, then ship to NFA(SOT?) FFL when the stamp arrives or is the item shipped directly to the appropriate FFL once payment is made and I can pickup when the form 4 comes back approved.

I believe I can do regular long guns through you, Coctailer, but what about 'long' NFA items? What if I want to transfer a silencer? Is there a list on NWFA of who to deal with?

So, I went and actually read the link in the OP.

The guns were never taken, and some dude blogging on the net said the ATF had an issue with his specific trust. The wording in the trust was corrected and all is well in the land of Quicken Trusts.

Do you have a link to someone that has had their items seized?

The were never taken in your link.

My apologies, in my haste I misinterpreted what the article was articulating. I think the lawyer there was trying to imply that things were taken after using Quicken. Not the case.

As soon as I read the title of this thread "Trust Question (invalidated?)" I knew this would be a "David M. Goldman Gun trust lawyer" scare topic post. Advice from a lawyer on creating a trust is a good thing, "David M. Goldman Gun trust lawyer" on the other hand is a propaganda artist with self interests at heart, not the good of the gun community at heart.

We do have a member here that is a lawyer that has done gun trusts and comes highly recommended from some close friends.

Member: Ski_Dog

Agreed Trismn, and I have contacted Ski_Dog

How is this possible? The ATF doesn't care what state the trust came from.

They only care if the item is legal in that state, and if the trust is valid.

Why would a Form 4 get approved for Oregon and rejected for Florida using the exact same trust template?

States have different requirements for trusts. A trust that is legal in Oregon might not be legal in Florida. If the trust is valid in Washington that doesnt necessarily mean that it will be valid in Florida. The ATF is reviewing trusts these days to see if they are state compliant before approving the form 1 or 4.

I'm still unsure what would invalidate a (very basic) NFA trust moving from one state to another? Does this invalidate the stamp?

Again, thanks for all the input, it's been very useful.

-RD8

 

[wired]

This thread really picked up, thanks guys! I'm still in the research (internet, you guys) phase, so I do have a lot of questions. My limited experience with the legal system has not been pleasant, so want to make sure I cross all my t's and dot the i's.



It does sound like a scare tactic to get new business and I'm sure he charges a premium for being an NFA expert.



How much different is NFA stuff from regular regarding the actual transfer legality (I'm an Oregon resident)? Say I want a Noveske/LMT SBR that I don't want to engrave (Form 4 route). Do I place the order with Noveske, they give me the SN#, they 'hold' the item, then ship to NFA(SOT?) FFL when the stamp arrives or is the item shipped directly to the appropriate FFL once payment is made and I can pickup when the form 4 comes back approved.

I believe I can do regular long guns through you, Coctailer, but what about 'long' NFA items? What if I want to transfer a silencer? Is there a list on NWFA of who to deal with?






My apologies, in my haste I misinterpreted what the article was articulating. I think the lawyer there was trying to imply that things were taken after using Quicken. Not the case.



Agreed Trismn, and I have contacted Ski_Dog





I'm still unsure what would invalidate a (very basic) NFA trust moving from one state to another? Does this invalidate the stamp?

Again, thanks for all the input, it's been very useful.

-RD8

Once you are issued the stamp on your trust and move to a different state that trust still remains valid in the state you started it in. If you move and are a permanent resident of another state you must use a trust that is valid in the state you now live in for further purchases . Of course you have to notify the ATF of your move. The only way to know if the old trust is valid in your state of residence is to run it by an attorney who will charge for for walking in his door or you can draft a new trust that is state specific with the quicken software. Again if its good enough for the ATF they will approve it. If its not they just kick it back for revision.

 

[Outrider]

I'm still unsure what would invalidate a (very basic) NFA trust moving from one state to another? Does this invalidate the stamp?

No. It's not that a valid trust gets invalidated by moving states or the stamp gets revoked due to moving. You can move states if you notify the ATF and they approve your Form 5320.20. If the trust was valid when formed in your home state, it remains valid even if you move to another state with different requirements.

The issue is whether the trust was valid when formed, in the state it was formed. If you take some cookie cutter trust that is totally blank that would be compliant with OR law, move to FL, become a resident in FL, fill it out in FL, fund it in FL, and it does not comply with FL law, that's when it is invalid. It's invalid because it does not comply with state law where formation was attempted.

To illustrate the concept, State A may have nothing in its law requiring the trust terms to explicitly state how to revoke the trust. State B may insist the method of how to revoke the trust be explicitly stated in the trust. If you take a cookie cutter trust for State A and attempt to form the trust in State B as a resident of State B, you will fail to form a valid trust under the laws of State B.

 

[waltermitty]

Small Arms Review is very Title 2 friendly. That being said, it has printed articles
in the past which caution folks about the need to not run blindly into PC generated
trust, corps, etc due to the devil in the details which may be suitable for one
person and their personal/economic situation (and state, obviously) but quite a
bit different for another person living in a different state, personal and econo-
mic differences notwithstanding.

I have a colleague who started off with Title 2 firearms locally, in blue tinted
Seattle, who then finished law school, moved over to JAG, and all the while
continued to gain experience with Title 2 firearms and their acquisitions which
rival Kevin Dockerty (Military Channel).

He is not a chest thumper. He does not hold the blanket position that all things
good originate from lawyers. He has a very practical view of what is do-able,
vs realistic, vs due diligence etc.

He does not advocate blind following of software or attorneys. Not all soft-
ware or attorneys are so cleanly defined that you can emphatically state
that they are the panacea for Title 2 ownership. bottom line is that just like
hunting for a auto mechanic, deciding on a specific doctor, etc, it requires
some care. Be it Quicken software or lawyer, they will come back to haunt
you if not carefully considered for your personal location and situation before-
hand.

 

[Gun Guy 4 Life]

Ok, heres the deal for you folks worried about setting up a trust on a premade template. First, it is state specific. Second lawyers will feed into your fear of the unknown; that being said they tell you stories of people violating the NFA rules when in fact they have not produced any such actual cases; which are public record. Dont take an attorneys word on those stories they make money by creating fear in you. If you dont believe me call or write the ATF and request the cases that they are involved in when it comes to the invalidated trusts; there are none to date. But dont take my word for it either do the research yourself. I like my proof in black and white, which no lawyer has produced; only scare tactics to citizens who buy into there crap that they need $600 for a trust that is about 10 pages long on average. The cheapest lawyer I have seen for Texas is Sean Cody who charges $450, which is still a redicuously high amount (even if he says he provides help afterwards){which they have to represent you if they created it cause its their butt on the line; if not sue them for damages}. Anything over $300 is outragous. I had an attorney do mine for $250, yes they are out there and are fair, don buy into these attorneys with high prices, they have to pay for their internet sites and other overhead costs. There are still a few lawyers who are reasonable and legitamate.

With that being said dont take an attorneys word for it, cause they tend to be full of B.S. And as for those people who say you get what you pay for, yep thats right you got a 10 page document that cost you a few hundred more then it should have, but you think you have piece of mind when in reality your just a dumbass who overpaid for a service, when you could have went to another lawyer just as competent but who charges less.

 

[sprocket3]

Ok, heres the deal for you folks worried about setting up a trust on a premade template. First, it is state specific. Second lawyers will feed into your fear of the unknown; that being said they tell you stories of people violating the NFA rules when in fact they have not produced any such actual cases; which are public record. Dont take an attorneys word on those stories they make money by creating fear in you. If you dont believe me call or write the ATF and request the cases that they are involved in when it comes to the invalidated trusts; there are none to date. But dont take my word for it either do the research yourself. I like my proof in black and white, which no lawyer has produced; only scare tactics to citizens who buy into there crap that they need $600 for a trust that is about 10 pages long on average. The cheapest lawyer I have seen for Texas is Sean Cody who charges $450, which is still a redicuously high amount (even if he says he provides help afterwards){which they have to represent you if they created it cause its their butt on the line; if not sue them for damages}. Anything over $300 is outragous. I had an attorney do mine for $250, yes they are out there and are fair, don buy into these attorneys with high prices, they have to pay for their internet sites and other overhead costs. There are still a few lawyers who are reasonable and legitamate.

With that being said dont take an attorneys word for it, cause they tend to be full of B.S. And as for those people who say you get what you pay for, yep thats right you got a 10 page document that cost you a few hundred more then it should have, but you think you have piece of mind when in reality your just a dumbass who overpaid for a service, when you could have went to another lawyer just as competent but who charges less.

Yes...But it's not that simple in all cases. I talked to a guy just today who went through a bankruptcy a few years ago and the atty forgot a few items on the forms for his Chapter 7. He had a surprise when he got hit with $25,000 in judgements a year after his chapter 7 was filed. He had to pay off the judgements and the mess up by the atty cost him $25,000.

When he went back to find his atty it turned out the guy is now disbarred and is AWAL.

You are in the dark if you think you can "just sue someone for damages" it's not that easy and might cost you $20,000 out of pocket. Last time i went to court it broke $30,000 in legal fees.

Get good advice, not cheap advice.

 

[Stomper]

I managed to execute the immigration paperwork (no small feat) by myself for my Australian wife and three Aussie kids, and navigate all of that through the State Dept. while abroad at that... WITHOUT the aid of an Immigration Lawyer or "Specialist".

This has piqued my interest as I'm starting the process of establishing a Revocable Trust for my impending SBR conversion of my Draco-C... this web-link has all of the Uniform Trust Code (UTC) as adopted by the State of Oregon in chapter 130 of the Oregon Revised Statutes.

https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors163.html


These are of particular interest for us Oregon NFA-er's purposes:

ORS 130.020 - UTC 105. Default and mandatory rules
ORS 130.150 - UTC 401. Methods of creating trust
ORS 130.155 - UTC 402. Requirements for creation

Now the crappy part, I went out and bought Quicken WillMaker, and so far I can't seem to find an option for "creating a Trust". I did copy and paste the document from the, "Revocable Living Trust" thread in this forum section, and I'm picking through it and entering the appropriate names, dates, and changing everything that says, "Washington" to "Oregon"...

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/nfa-weapons/18970-revocable-living-trust.html



So what Wired and Cocktailer said... a trained monkey can establish a trust on a napkin written in lipdick... I haz trust, can I haz silenzer?

 

[wsu 5.9er]

The newer version of Willmaker doesn't have the trust option anymore. Mine did have a link to a company called Nolo and it came with a free online trust maker.

 

[best defense]

Just a note here on my experience with attorneys and trusts:
Not all attorneys who claim to be versed in the proceedure are in fact knowledgable about the details.
While it had nothing to do with a NFA weapon, or any other weapon, the guy who first set up a trust for my dad screwed it up royally, so if you plan to have an attorney do the work, you should do your best to find out how much experience he/she has at setting up trusts. Getting refferences would be a good idea too, and yes it may very well be expensive to have an attorney do the work, depending on how much time he/she needs to expend to get it right.
Most attorneys will charge no less than $25.00 just to write a letter, and the attorney probably won't even do the actual writing.

 

[Flyingjibus]

I used a quicken trust that I edited to be more NFA specific for my MG. Worked just fine. Dont believe the fear mongering.