Tri County Muzzle over Berm

[nwhpfan]

Looks like the rule is official; no loaded guns pointed over the berm; even during a reload. As a member I ask:

Were there specific incidents in which an accident occurred? Verified by facts, proper investigation-not just rumor and innuendo. Members, LE/Mil training, competition, classes, etc. have been doing this since the beginning of time.

Was this issue fully presented to the membership for input?

Should pistol caliber be exempt?

Besides TCGC being unable to host official USPSA matches (in the future unless the Board grants an exception), Law Enforcement Training, proper self defense training; members will no longer be able to properly train at TCGC.

TCGC members or not; was the rule change "really" necessary, does the board represent the membership, is it time for me or you to step up and run for an open position, should like minded members attend the next meeting to represent the practical, LE/Mil, competition shooting community? Lets hear it.

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[speedtriple]

I want to read the official wording of the new rule. What was in the newsletter said "loaded". If we can't reload in a manner to properly train or hold competitions, that will be a sad deal.

 

[Siuslaw Warrior]

Id like to know more about this issue .. is there a link?

 

[nwhpfan]

Id like to know more about this issue .. is there a link?

I was told about this rule at the monthly USPSA match in August. It seemed many people were caught off guard. I was not aware of any full membership discussion before the board made this decision. The September newsletter talks about this rule and indicates there are more; but this is the most noticeable. It is in the "Official TCGC Notices."

 

[Burt Gummer]

They are just paranoid about just one bullet making off the premises and hitting someone or something. There a lot of idiots out there I can't blame them. Decades of history gone in a flash if that were to happen.

Watching various YouTube videos I always see shooters point upward above the berm when in transition from target to target or when reloading.

Part of me is happy that I've been adjusted not to do that.

You have to ask yourself what would you do if you owned TCGC? Would you want your future in jeopardy because one careless person pointed his gun/rifle above the berm and fired or had a ND?

 

[nwhpfan]

They are just paranoid about just one bullet making off the premises and hitting someone or something. There a lot of idiots out there I can't blame them. Decades of history gone in a flash if that were to happen.

Watching various YouTube videos I always see shooters point upward above the berm when in transition from target to target or when reloading.

Part of me is happy that I've been adjusted not to do that.

You have to ask yourself what would you do if you owned TCGC? Would you want your future in jeopardy because one careless person pointed his gun/rifle above the berm and fired or had a ND?

Good points and thanks for sharing them. The discussion is how things are properly vetted and all should be brought forward to ensure the best decision is made in the end. Who else; let's hear them.

 

[PDXGS]

Take a look at the baffles and concrete barriers....there are strikes in all of them including the indoor range. The new rules reflect the circumstances that, had the baffles not been in place, could easily put the club in jeopardy. Adapt or shoot somewhere else...

 

[Lange22250]

Here's plenty of informed (mostly) discussion about the topic in general with some mention of TCGC - Reload without allowing muzzle over the berm - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

 

[darkminstrel]

"how are the revolver guys going to dump the empties out of their cylinders?"

NICE! Best response to that silly rule.

 

[nwhpfan]

Adapt or shoot somewhere else...

Let's keep this a discussion. Nobody here (yet) is talking of going somewhere else and that isn't what this discussion is about. Of course USPSA matches will not be able to be held at TCGC (along with many other action shooting disciplines) if the rule is implemented. But do you have information the damage you speak of was caused by "muzzle over the berm" which is to be banned; or rather wanton damage to property. The discussion is about if the rule is actually necessary; will it make a difference, etc.

 

[MarkAd]

Dumping brass means the revolver isn't loaded anymore. And I load with the muzzle down on my wheel guns
How high are the berms? What angle would it take to go over the berm? Why hasn't the club built higher berms?
Are they shooting themselves in the foot with this rule.

 

[nwhpfan]

Why hasn't the club built higher berms?
Are they shooting themselves in the foot with this rule.

Good questions!

 

[PDXGS]

Making gun handling rules fair and uniform is something that all large ranges struggle with. There are those who think that simplified, uniform codes of conduct for all shooters present is the safest way to run the range.
This is what's happening at TriCounty.
Like it or not, there are some shooters at TriCounty that simply don't follow the rules or, for some reason, cannot control their firearms to the degree that the rules can be relaxed. So all of us pay for the ineptitude, carelessness or purposeful abuse of shots that go over over the berm.
It's simply less risk exposure to the club to enforce more and more restrictive rules.
Hopefully we can figure out a way to allow for the construction of higher berms...perhaps that will happen when the quarry starts eating away at the action bays and they get moved into the pit.
Frankly. I've seen too many idividuals with guns at Tri County who are either clueless as to the rules or just morons. As a member I take negligent gun handling and flagrant rule breaking personally. Sometimes these can be moments to educate others on the rules and general safety practices. Other times it's about all I can do to seek cover and start yelling.

 

[nwhpfan]

Making gun handling rules fair and uniform is something that all large ranges struggle with. There are those who think that simplified, uniform codes of conduct for all shooters present is the safest way to run the range.
This is what's happening at TriCounty.
Like it or not, there are some shooters at TriCounty that simply don't follow the rules or, for some reason, cannot control their firearms to the degree that the rules can be relaxed. So all of us pay for the ineptitude, carelessness or purposeful abuse of shots that go over over the berm.
It's simply less risk exposure to the club to enforce more and more restrictive rules.
Hopefully we can figure out a way to allow for the construction of higher berms...perhaps that will happen when the quarry starts eating away at the action bays and they get moved into the pit.
Frankly. I've seen too many idividuals with guns at Tri County who are either clueless as to the rules or just morons. As a member I take negligent gun handling and flagrant rule breaking personally. Sometimes these can be moments to educate others on the rules and general safety practices. Other times it's about all I can do to seek cover and start yelling.

Well put. But we already have a rule on unsafe gun handling. We already have a rule against wanton damage to property. We already have a rules that says finger out of trigger guard until ready to shoot. If these rules haven't stopped the damage or diminished the concern; why do we think a "muzzle over the berm" rule will change things. I almost liken it to some gun control laws whose authors believe they will end violence...when people like me and most would say; we already have a law against murder so why do we think this law will make a difference.

I do like the idea of higher berms and I like the idea of holding those accountable that break range rules.

 

[PDXGS]

Well put. But we already have a rule on unsafe gun handling. We already have a rule against wanton damage to property. We already have a rules that says finger out of trigger guard until ready to shoot. If these rules haven't stopped the damage or diminished the concern; why do we think a "muzzle over the berm" rule will change things. I almost liken it to some gun control laws whose authors believe they will end violence...when people like me and most would say; we already have a law against murder so why do we think this law will make a difference.

I do like the idea of higher berms and I like the idea of holding those accountable that break range rules.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I agree with you. This situation reminds me of a classroom of smart kids and two others...a jackass and a moron.
Unfortunately, it oftens come down to slowing the pace of instruction and enforcing unreasonable rules to deal with the two outliers....

 

[fry]

would you rather have the club shut down for ever? that would be the stoopidist rule of all time and could happen with just one incident

you could turn it into a golf course or driving range, that would be pretty cool.

it is unfortunate that all of you who know everything dont understand basic concepts like lawsuites and liability. your board of directors is trying to ensure the future of your club and is representing the memberships best interest.

maybe some of you experts would like to foot the bill to baffle the whole range, and personally guaranty and insure 100% that not one round will ever leave the range.

 

[nwhpfan]

would you rather have the club shut down for ever? that would be the stoopidist rule of all time and could happen with just one incident

Is that really the alternative? Make this rule or the club shuts down forever?

it is unfortunate that all of you who know everything dont understand basic concepts like lawsuites and liability. your board of directors is trying to ensure the future of your club and is representing the memberships best interest.

Who or what isn't understood. Are/were their lawsuits? Did something happen? Was it because of a "muzzle over the berm" incident.

maybe some of you experts would like to foot the bill to baffle the whole range, and personally guaranty and insure 100% that not one round will ever leave the range.

My impression is this rule will disallow the range for most action shooting sports and make it unsuitable for proper LE, Military, or self-defense training. If there was a problem; I would like to know exactly what it was; incidents, etc. Then I would like to know what "they" determined the causes were (and who "they" are). I would also be interested in knowing what process took place to ensure the issues, causes, solutions were fully vetted.

 

[SPHBS]

What about using only the 5? bays facing east against the large rock wall? Push the courses of fire far enough into the bays so that the muzzle would have to be at an almost ridiculous angle to launch one out of the range. You'd lose some flexibility in terms of course design but it would be better than not having any matches at all. On the 6th classifier stage, use one of the other bays and choose classifiers that do not require a reload. Again, not ideal but...

 

[PDXGS]

Hey NWHPFan,
Why not take your questions to the board? Not trying to be contentious here but it might be something that you can get a straight answer to face to face at a board meeting.

 

[beavernation]

Why would this rule "disallow the range for most action shooting sports"?.....keep your muzzle down when you do your reload, problem solved?.............uh yea I shoot IDPA out there and we have heard this rule was coming for a couple months.......