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Hey NWHPFan,
Why not take your questions to the board? Not trying to be contentious here but it might be something that you can get a straight answer to face to face at a board meeting.

Fair question and not contentious at all. The work to mediate this situation is underway. I bring it up here only to openly talk about the issue of a "muzzle over the berm" rule. Whether it be at Tri County, Douglas Ridge, Albany Rifle and Pistol, etc-the issues and concerns are worth discussing. I hope it's been clear throughout that I'm just trying to have an open, non emotion charged debate about the merits of such a rule, the reasons behind, the actual need, etc.
 
Is that really the alternative? Make this rule or the club shuts down forever?





Who or what isn't understood. Are/were their lawsuits? Did something happen? Was it because of a "muzzle over the berm" incident.



My impression is this rule will disallow the range for most action shooting sports and make it unsuitable for proper LE, Military, or self-defense training. If there was a problem; I would like to know exactly what it was; incidents, etc. Then I would like to know what "they" determined the causes were (and who "they" are). I would also be interested in knowing what process took place to ensure the issues, causes, solutions were fully vetted.

you really dont understand what im saying, and it is obvious from your response.

im going to throw you a bone here (me=sarcastic) (your club=proactive)

its also apparent you dont have a clue with what is happing across the country with rifle/pistol clubs. it goes way beyond the rule your club just made that you dont understand or agree with. i could extrapolate on several topics but i digress.

good luck talking with your BOD.

take a friend with you so he can can explain what happened.
 
you really dont understand what im saying, and it is obvious from your response.

im going to throw you a bone here (me=sarcastic) (your club=proactive)

its also apparent you dont have a clue with what is happing across the country with rifle/pistol clubs. it goes way beyond the rule your club just made that you dont understand or agree with. i could extrapolate on several topics but i digress.

good luck talking with your BOD.

take a friend with you so he can can explain what happened.

I'd like to see this as a meaningful conversation. If you believe TCGC is proactive and want to talk about what is happening across the country. Please share. But an insidious tone towards me just degrades the message.
 
I am on the Board of Directors for TCGC. And I will give you my take on the issue. It is just my opinion based on 14 years of USPSA, Tactical Matches, Practical Rifle, Speed Steel, assorted other other action shooting matches and more than a few major 3 Gun matches as a competitor and a stage RO. It is also based on 4 years now on the TCGC BOD and as much research as i have been able to do on gun club management and legal issues related to gun clubs. I have also run the club action range certification class since January '11.
It does not necessarily reflect the opinion of any other club officers or directors.

Points in no particular order.

- There will be no more large outdoor ranges with access to the general public opening in the foreseeable future in the Portland metro area. Population density, property values, EPA and DEQ regulation, zoning and political issues make it impossible. The situation is the same for most areas around population centers in the country except for a few VERY Red States. Gun clubs like TCGC are like the last of an endangered species which can't breed.

- Jeff Cooper's Second Law of Safe Gun Handling, never point a firearm at anything you are not prepared to destroy. Ask yourself, do you get to ignore the law when you know you are probably pointing the gun at someone or someone's property just because you can't see it? Is it ok to point a gun at your buddy when your finger is off the trigger?
The first person who say's something along the lines of "Big Boy Rules" in seriousness will never receive an action range sticker for TCGC and if they already have one I will do my best to pull it.

- I will not discuss it on a public forum but there have been problems which this rule is designed to address. If it were hypothetical it would never have been brought up in the new rules. I have seen enough rounds leave the ranges at major matches, launched by high level competitors and novices alike, to know it is an issue and not a hypothetical. Everyone can have a bad day and you can't predict who that will be and when. If you haven't seen it happen or been at a match where it has happened, you have not been to a lot of matches.

- The only match directors at TCGC who have said their match will stop at this point due to the rule are USPSA and possibly the new 3 gun match (which is odd because when that match was approved by the board it was under the express condition that a no muzzle over the berm rule be in effect.). Both Practical Rifle and the Tactical Match have had this rule for a while now and the short range rifle match also had it before it stopped last year.

- Only one or two police agencies have said they will have a problem with the rule.
The state police academy does not teach a muzzle high reload unless an agency specifically requests it. It is not a standard. This is according to one of the lead firearms trainers at the academy.

- Yes, the no muzzle of a firearm loaded with a solid projectile will be raised above the outer (high) berms rule will not guarantee a round will not leave the range. But an honest assessment will lead you to believe that it substantially reduces the likely hood. Ricochets can and will still continue to happen, but the likely hood of them leaving TCGC property is very small. A shot over the berm is going a long way.

- Gun clubs all over the county are being attacked with lawsuits and bureaucratic maneuvers. Some are successful, some are not. Some are genuine and some are fabricated for personal or political reason. They all cost a LOT of money. TCGC has survived both and a lot of money has been spent on them. BOD's have a fiduciary responsibility to the club and it's members as a whole. The money in TCGC's bank accounts and the 320 acres of land TVSC owns are very tempting targets. To call us paranoid of legal actions is ignorant on it's face. Paranoia is a fear of something that has unreasonable chance of happening.

- You can do a fast and effective reload with anything you want without pointing it over the berm. It may be slightly slower but if that is the rule for the competition than the playing field is level and that is all a competitor can ask for. I understand that a lot of people are upset that the hours and money they spent working on a muzzle high reload will now be a liability until they retrain. I have also noted that a lot of high level competitors will frequently keep the muzzle low in a reload during movement already.
Based on my match results at major 3 gun matches I am only 70% as fast/good as the top level competitors on my best days, but I can pretty much guarantee that my muzzle low reload will not be so much slower than their muzzle high reload as to account for the differences in the scores and make no realistic difference in a self defense setting.

- I keep hearing that the muzzle will always rise above the berm during the recoil cycle. Watching match video and lots of lasers during the CT match leads me to the opinion that that is only true with people who don't know how to run their gun in the first place or are way over gunned. As an aside to those people who hand a new shooter a large, powerful firearm and snicker when they get hammered or hurt by the recoil - you are bubblegums. That new shooter will now have problems they have to overcome to become good shooters or will just be turned off to firearms all together.

- If you took the time to read the BrianEnos.com thread on the issue you will see that this is not just a problem to USPSA at TCGC. They have already lost clubs,and been denied access to clubs, because they will not/ can not have any flexibility to their rules. I understand the argument as to why. At the same time I think they will continue to loose ranges and at some point faster that they can find new ones. Let's be very clear, USPSA needs the ranges a lot more than the ranges needs USPSA. In the case of TCGC less than 8% of members (IIRC) have ever gone to a USPSA match and that percentage continues to shrink each year, that is simple not what most members are interested in. TCGC leaves all of the income from the match with the discipline for expenses and kicks in extra money from the club general funds when requested.

- Accusations that the current BOD is hostile to the action shooting sports are simply ignorant. The majority are and have been long time competitors in at least one if not more of the different matches. All of the recent requests to start new matches have been approved with seed money. All Requests for money have been approved. More than a little money has been and will be spent on maintenance and improvements to the current action range. $160 K (IIRC) is budgeted for the first phase of the new range in the lower range complex (gravel pit) adding as many new bays as possible, to be started as soon as we can get down there. Great effort and lots of time have been spent improving the quality and availability of the action range certification class.
If you don't like the direction the BOD has taken I would point out that elections are coming up and you are encouraged, seriously we want more people to get involved, to toss your name in the hat for a position.
The new rule has not been kept secret up until the last minute. It has been discussed at the member meetings and copies of the proposed rules have been circulated.

- If you try to argue that any ND is a DQ so that should some how make the BOD feel better if that ND goes out of the range, you just doesn't get it. As far as the I'm is concerned the damage is done and as far as I am concerned what you did to them is irrelevant to the potential problem which was created. The finger should always be off the trigger and on the frame unless you are shooting, yes, absolutely true. It does prevent ND's, but people still have bad days and ND's at matches, and if the muzzle is over the berm than, again, the damage is done.

- It would be great to raise all the berms 40 feet. The board has kept postponing dumping the 100-200 k into that project because TVSC has kept telling us that we are just about ready to move down into the new lower range complex. We were just about to start on the berms this year but stopped when we were given a hard target of this fall to start the move.
100 foot berms are not tall enough with some of the manipulations that people do, example the muzzle high reload. So the rule would still be put in place.
The only way, in my opinion, to prevent a round from leaving the range with the muzzle high reload is a steel plate roof.

- To the people offering observations about the lowest common denominators among the membership at TCGC, the ones exhibiting the text book poor gun handling skills. I will tell you this. The board is now unanimous in the opinion that a line will be drawn from here on out. You get caught doing something stupid, a)if we feel you just didn't understand what you were doing was bad and you are teachable we will try to retrain you or b)if we feel that you were given a chance and kept repeating the behavior your gone and c)if your caught doing something stupid and we feel you just don't care you are gone and we will kick you in the *** on the way out and trespass you if we catch you here again. The lowest common denominators at the reason why a lot of the rules exist in the first place and they drag the rest of us down. We don't need them around. If you are one of the lowest common denominators please fix yourself ASAP, you can't get away with it any longer.


I am happy to explain my position and actions as a TCGC director to members as that is my responsibility. I try to always listen to other peoples opinions, think hard about their point of view and not reject them out of hand if they conflict with mine. I also try not to make decisions based on knee jerk reactions to problems. I am not infallible and people who know me will tell you that I usually own up to mistakes quickly.

My 2cents.
 
I am on the Board of Directors for TCGC. And I will give you my take on the issue.

Thanks for doing so. I sense this was a very touchy issue from reading your response. And I found your comments regarding accusations against the board, responses to certain arguments not discussed yet on this thread; interesting and leads me to believe there had been a much contentious debate elsewhere?

- I will not discuss it on a public forum but there have been problems which this rule is designed to address.

Well this may be the crux of this debate. Not the rule itself; but the communication of it. I'm sure you'd be happy to tell a member or partner the problem in a venue other than "here" but the methods of communication or the effectiveness of it beforehand may be a contributor to some of the feedback....now. You addressed on some of the concerns and they are valid so thanks for your input.
 
I shoot cowboy matches at TCGC,and I see a whole lot of muzzles over the berm to shuck shells out of a double barrel,and even the model '97's' as a misfeed is being cleared ,using gravity as an assist.Some shooters use recoil for cockinig their sixguns too.We are going to have to STRESS this new rule,or we're gonna lose a lot of shooters over it,AND I think the new rule in its'self is gonna cost us some shooters.
I do see the need,and I"ve seen bullets launched at ranges i've been to,but it's sure gonna be a PITA while we retrain ourselves in some aspects of gun handleing.
 
I shoot cowboy matches at TCGC,and I see a whole lot of muzzles over the berm to shuck shells out of a double barrel,and even the model '97's' as a misfeed is being cleared ,using gravity as an assist.Some shooters use recoil for cockinig their sixguns too.We are going to have to STRESS this new rule,or we're gonna lose a lot of shooters over it,AND I think the new rule in its'self is gonna cost us some shooters.
I do see the need,and I"ve seen bullets launched at ranges i've been to,but it's sure gonna be a PITA while we retrain ourselves in some aspects of gun handleing.

Interesting: but I wonder if shotgun will be exempt. From what I've read it is on the trap ranges. I was talking to a LE this morning who was wondering about AR catastrophic malfunction clearences which consist of kneeling and thrusting the buttstock into the ground while pulling on charging handle to dislodge the malfunction. Good points; thanks.
 
I was at the rifle range the other day and the RO told someone "Safety glasses are required. You need to wear safety glasses". The person responded "I don't wear safety glasses" and he never put on the glasses. The RO passively responded "Well we are going to start cracking down on this in the future". The RO didn't demand compliance. It seems to me that if new rules are going to be implemented, then they need immediate compliance (i.e. simply comply or go home). I'd hate to see the club closed because members weren't willing to comply with (neccesary) rules.
 
I was at the rifle range the other day and the RO told someone "Safety glasses are required. You need to wear safety glasses". The person responded "I don't wear safety glasses" and he never put on the glasses. The RO passively responded "Well we are going to start cracking down on this in the future". The RO didn't demand compliance. It seems to me that if new rules are going to be implemented, then they need immediate compliance (i.e. simply comply or go home). I'd hate to see the club closed because members weren't willing to comply with (neccesary) rules.

I've met..I believe...all the RO's at TCGC and they are great folks. But range rules I have for the GP 50/100 and 200/300 big bore still says "Ear and Eye Protection Recommended." Maybe this is one of the new rules? Only the "Action Range" requires eye and ear pro in the current rule book.
 
mee too. find this very hard to believe. have shot at TC GC a couple times and didnt remember not having to use eye protection.

<broken link removed>

Rules specific to ranges begin on page 4. Cut and pasted-

VI. GENERAL PURPOSE 50/100 RANGE
A. Ear and eye protection recommended.


VII. BIG BORE 200/300 RANGE
A. Ear and eye protection recommended.

VIII. CONVENTIONAL PISTOL RANGE
A. Ear and eye protection recommended.


IX. ACTION RANGE *
A. Ear and Eye protection required.
 
Probably because legally you assume the risk when not shooting with ear and eye protection. Sort of like going to a golf course and getting clobbered by a ball, or the same with a baseball game. When you willingly enter an area with inherent dangers the law assumes you knew the risks and accepted them.

Imo anyone who shoots without them is a fool. Tinnitus is overrated; being blind even worse.
 
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DQ....
images.jpg
DQ....
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DQ....

See my point?

How does a muzzle over the berm rule work when many pistols point over the berm on recoil? It is one of the most likely times a person will shoot over the berm, finger on the trigger and live round loading in the chamber.

index.jpg

images.jpg

images2.jpg
 
To expand on Pepe,
Throw in weak hand only drills stages and it becomes near impossible. Looking thru the latest Front Sight magazine I see at least 4 pictures of what looks like muzzle over berm during recoil, one looks like weak hand only (by a well known top female shooter).
 
Are the official rules now posted? What I find on the web site are the 09 rules.

I was just watching Shooting USA from the DVR and Julie Golob was giving a demonstration. (Shooting USA aired Weds 9/5/12)
After every single shot, slow fire, her muzzle would have been pointing over the berm.
She is a world champion, professional, and could not keep recoil from lifting the muzzle that high.

If the rule is just during load, unload and reload - that will give different challenges.


Thanks,

Ric
 

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