The .410 and home defense

[eb in oregon]

People have been arguing about home defense for my entire 73 years. However the 12 gage shotgun is considered a "heavy hitter" and tops the list.

I have a cousin I visited the other week who is adequate with her pistol yet is considering adding a shotgun. I took along my Mossberg .410 with 22 inch barrel with glowing rifle sights. Good size for indoors. It's better for most women, slightly smaller than the 12 gage and lighter. She liked it. The .410 is usually considered inadequate. I disagree. While it does not have the punch of the 12 it will do the job. I don't know anyone that could remotely continue to be aggressive with a face full of No. 8 birdshot at 10 to 15 feet. And you'll probably get an eye if not both. Then the next up quarter ounce slug is essentially a 110 grain bullet that will stop their clock. And too almost all people on this planet know the sound of a shotgun being racked. That "shooga shooga" has been on TV and movies forever. An intruder wouldn't know the size, but they would understand the sound. Plainly explaining from behind cover that they best leave vertically or they will leave horizontally has the benefit of most likely them leaving and you won't have all that paper work and media attention. I've shot clays with .410 and practice makes perfect. So I disagree and think the .410 adequate for most situations. This isn't my version but if I see one I'm going to buy it.

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[Juniper9mm]

I think you are spot on. People will get hung up on academic arguments based on best, which is usually what is in thier gun safe, while over looking the more than adequate, as your post suggests. The .410 'is' more than adequate as there likley would not be much of a market for .410 defense loads as there is, nor owners of Judge type pistols

 

[WillametteWill]

Just an opinion,
I would contrast inadequate with suboptimal. It's been said by those smarter than me, that one should use the most powerful gun they can shoot well. With handguns, many find the 9mm as the sweet spot. With shotguns, most can find a load for the 12 gauge that is light enough to control. But if not, and a smaller gauge/bore fits this, then that can be an option. The slug is like a slightly hotter 10mm (light bullet round). It could do the trick, but I would not count on a one-stop shot.

So if it works for someone, it may be suboptimal, but appropriate for their situation. There is a reason police cars are not filled with .410s, and why they are adding or swapping the 12 gauge for a rifle. But that does not mean something else can work or is "adequate."

 

[gmerkt]

I suppose just about any gun has some value for defense at 10 to 15 feet. As long as the shot gets on target. The relatively small payload "cone" of the .410 isn't going to have much dispersal at that range, especially with the typical full choke most .410's have. So what you'll have is a concentrated ball of shot hitting the target but much smaller than a larger gauge. In an interior defensive situation as described, the .410 will be a more wounding shot and a 12 gauge has more potential for a completely disabling one. I'm not an expert, just my opinion. Perps have a tendency to flee the scene when shot with anything, so from that standpoint alone, the .410 has value.

.410 is "easy to shoot" but so is a 20 gauge (short of a hot turkey load or whatever) which has more poop.

Years ago, my dad had three brothers who worked for him. Two were straight arrows, the third was a bit wild. He got caught in the bedroom of another man's wife one time and the aggrieved husband shot him in the crotch with a .410. Pellets perforated his penis; after that his urethra had multiple orifices and he had to get real close to the urinal to keep from being messy.

 

[1775usmc]

From personal experience I would not suggest .410 or any kind of bird shot in general for self defense.

 

[eb in oregon]

Just an opinion,
I would contrast inadequate with suboptimal. It's been said by those smarter than me, that one should use the most powerful gun they can shoot well. With handguns, many find the 9mm as the sweet spot. With shotguns, most can find a load for the 12 gauge that is light enough to control. But if not, and a smaller gauge/bore fits this, then that can be an option. The slug is like a slightly hotter 10mm (light bullet round). It could do the trick, but I would not count on a one-stop shot.

So if it works for someone, it may be suboptimal, but appropriate for their situation. There is a reason police cars are not filled with .410s, and why they are adding or swapping the 12 gauge for a rifle. But that does not mean something else can work or is "adequate."

However the .410 is more gentle to the house and furniture, the ears, and will do the same job. Stop an intruder in your house.
"Suboptimal," that would include using the 5.56 in desert environments, using a .22LR for anything bigger than a rabbit, or .30 caliber machine guns to shoot at metal fighter planes. If it works it ain't stupid. Circumstances dictate optimal and circumstances always change. And we all know about opinions, mine is no better than anyone else's.

I'll keep the .410 where it rests. Anyway it's only a few steps to grab something bigger and badder.

 

[eb in oregon]

I did say "face" at 10 to 15 feet. Any volunteers? Shot placement counts, not the number or size of the shot load. I seem to recall a guy who hunted elephant's with a 6.5 Mannlicher. One shot. And no where did I say it would be anything other than an option for some people.

 

[1775usmc]

I did say "face" at 10 to 15 feet. Any volunteers? Shot placement counts, not the number or size of the shot load. I seem to recall a guy who hunted elephant's with a 6.5 Mannlicher. One shot. And no where did I say it would be anything other than an option for some people.

I've seen a someone after they tried committing suicide. Suck started a 12 gauge and ate bird shot in the back of his car. Point blank. Lived for 3 hours afterwards.

 

[1775usmc]

There are no guarantees. Bullets do funny things. I've seen 9mm and .45 both fail point blank as well on a human body/skull as well.

 

[Outpost75]

For HD in the .410 use ONLY 00 buck.

Bird shot is a non-starter.

 

[eb in oregon]

For HD in the .410 use ONLY 00 buck.

Bird shot is a non-starter.

Any volunteers? The object is to have them stop their behavior. Otherwise I'd use a BAR. But that would be really hard on the house.

 

[1775usmc]

Any volunteers? The object is to have them stop their behavior. Otherwise I'd use a BAR.

I'm not looking to "stop" or wound. I'm looking to neutralize a threat, aka no longer breathing. Which is why .410 is not an option for me when I have much better probabilities for success with better platforms.

 

[eb in oregon]

I've been shot with a .22LR and a .25ACP. I didn't like it either time and they were extremity shots. You do what you gotta do.

 

[1775usmc]

I've been shot with a .22LR and a .25ACP. I didn't like it either time and they were extremity shots. You do what you gotta do.

And what I gotta do is NOT willingly carry something that has a high probability of failing.

That's just dumb in my opinion. But I also don't buy into the mindset of something is better than nothing. That's just me. Others should do as they wish. Just know the consequences.

 

[Outpost75]

Performance of 5-pellet .410 00 buck at interior guard range of 20 yards closely approximates that of 12-gage cylinder bore riot gun firing 8 or 9 pellet 00 at 30 yards. Typical 14-16 inch bare gelatin penetration and 12 inches in FBI heavy clothing scenario firing from short 11-inch barrel. Bird shot and smaller than No.1 buck inadequate. Bare gel penetration only 6-8" with common "duck & pheaant" loads of No.6 shot.

 

[johnny bob]

Years ago, my dad had three brothers who worked for him. Two were straight arrows, the third was a bit wild. He got caught in the bedroom of another man's wife one time and the aggrieved husband shot him in the crotch with a .410. Pellets perforated his penis; after that his urethra had multiple orifices and he had to get real close to the urinal to keep from being messy.

I had heard of a similar story with the sprinkler hose. The good Doctor prescribed a session with his attending nurse. The nurse was also a piccolo player and could help the fellow with his handling of his problem.

 

[eb in oregon]

Performance of 5-pellet .410 00 buck at 20 yards approximates that of 12-gage cylinder bore riot gun firing 8 pellet 00 at 30 yards.

I seem to recall saying 10 to 15 feet. I mentioned the head (face) and that .410 is only an option. Does anybody read anymore?

And what I gotta do is NOT willingly carry something that has a high probability of failing.

That's just dumb in my opinion. But I also don't buy into the mindset of something is better than nothing. That's just me. Others should do as they wish. Just know the consequences.

Oh wow, there is the problem, who said "carry?" Few people carry a shotgun. However regardless of gage a good pump shotgun is a fine thing to prop by the door. Do you keep a .458 by the door for "Griz?" Maybe you should, you never know.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I did say "face" at 10 to 15 feet. Any volunteers? Shot placement counts, not the number or size of the shot load. I seem to recall a guy who hunted elephant's with a 6.5 Mannlicher. One shot. And no where did I say it would be anything other than an option for some people.

" Show me your face and I'll cure all your ills".

I don't imagine it's going to be all that easy to get an intruder to smile and wait for flash.

Center mass , and extremities are what is most likely to be available .

20ga , reduced recoil buckshot is what I'd recommend.

I own a few .410s , including the mossberg Shockwave.
Never gonna be my go to defensive option.

 

[1775usmc]

I seem to recall saying 10 to 15 feet. I mentioned the head (face) and that .410 is only an option. Does anybody read anymore?

Oh wow, there is the problem, who said "carry?" Few people carry a shotgun. However regardless of gage a good pump shotgun is a fine thing to prop by the door. Do you keep a .458 by the door for "Griz?" Maybe you should, you never know.

I'll take a 9mm Glock over a pump shotgun for self defense any day.

If we are going rifles I'll gladly take a 5.56 SBR over a shotgun.

 

[eb in oregon]

I've seen a someone after they tried committing suicide. Suck started a 12 gauge and ate bird shot in the back of his car. Point blank. Lived for 3 hours afterwards.

A girl I knew in high school got married while I was in the active Army (1970/1974) and he stuck a .410 in his mouth. He was pretty dead. Only my friend Debby was the one who found him. Messed her up.