Starbucks gun debate heats up

[Kevatc]

The facts are that protecting and exercising are two different and individual actions and that to argue that not exercising = not protecting is banal and simplistic...By not talking loudly, constantly on my cell phone am i weakening my 1st Amendment rights ?

In the case of open carry, exercising it in a obnoxious way may well be counterproductive to the point that if Starbucks feels it's damaging their business they'll be compelled to ban it on their premises. The fact that the have not caved in to pressure from the Brady idiots is, in this day and age, surprising and admirable. As posted earlier, time to move on from Starbucks.

Well said. I think that for some here who feel that OC anytime anywhere is perfectly fine forget that there is significant potential to backfire and have the absolute opposite effect of strengthening the right.

There is a time and place for everything. Just because you can fart in church doesn't mean that you should.

 

[FLYPNW]

I'm all for gun rights and think that Starbucks is doing the right thing. However setting up open carry gatherings at Starbucks because you can is rude and creates negative publicity for our side. Let's all praise Starbucks for standing up to the antigun advocates but let's keep it friendly. Knowing I can go to a Starbucks concealing and if somebody notices, it doesn't matter and that is good enough for me.

Very well said. As gun owners and carriers we have a responsibility to be reasonable and to maintain a low profile while carrying [especially] openly. On one occasion in a similar coffee peddling establishment, I saw a well dressed gentleman in business casual attire wearing [what appeared to be] a Beretta full size pistol in a nice leather holster on his belt. He carried it and himself confidently, he was polite and courteous and while most people clearly saw the pistol on his belt they were not at all alarmed. I believe it was his own carriage and demeanor that put people at ease. No one gave the gun a second thought.

However, conducting such parades, as discussed in the OP's article, is a well intended, albeit very poorly executed "in your face" move, even if it was meant only to test the law and not to provoke anti-gun folks. The law is the law as interpreted by our lawmakers and attorney's, not by my local Barista. Starbucks knows the law and has done the right thing by asking that they not be made the center of a debate that they did not initiate. I commend them for continuing to uphold the law. I even think - by reading a little between the lines - that in Starbucks statement they eluded to the fact that they feel safer with lawful carriers in their stores, but you be the judge...I kind of felt that sentiment as I read this: "Were we to adopt a policy different from local laws allowing open carry, we would be forced to require our partners to ask law abiding customers to leave our stores, putting our partners in an unfair and potentially unsafe position..."

 

[VW_Factor]

People that berate others for their personal choice of HOW they shall carry their sidearm.. Its just silly.

We're on the same side.

People are going to be anti gun whether you CC or OC. It doesn't matter. In my own experience of OC'ing, it never has been uncomfortably a negative experience. I've had more people applaud the courage to exercise our 2A rights, as opposed to 1 single person who seemed to not like it, but did not make a scene or fuss. This is hardly making "gun people" look bad.

We're Americans, its your right. Do it if you want, or not. Who are we to judge you.

I like that I don't have to go out of my way to CC and make sure I'm not made. I'm comfortable with my OWB holster sticking out a bit from under my coat. I don't try to bend certain ways so that my shirt, etc doesn't lift and show my sidearm.

There are times and places where deeper CC is most certainly more appropriate. Perhaps a job interview, or wedding, etc? But don't berate me or others for not bothering to cover. It does no one any good, to separate gun owners into groups like that.

 

[Trlsmn]

A comparison for the people that think exercising 2nd amendment legal open carry is obnoxious/flaunting, do you also feel that African Americans walking around acting all "free" is flaunting the 13th amendment?

 

[VW_Factor]

How dare they act all free and junk! /lulz

 

[Sling Blade]

A comparison for the people that think exercising 2nd amendment legal open carry is obnoxious/flaunting, do you also feel that African Americans walking around acting all "free" is flaunting the 13th amendment?

Sorry, I don't follow/understand your analogy. Seriously.

 

[Trlsmn]

Sorry, I don't follow/understand your analogy. Seriously.

OK?

 

[hermannr]

Gentelmen and ladies, please. The Bradys and CeaseFire have specifically stated they are targeting their activism Open Carry this year...If we do not all stand united as gun owners, they may win some...do you want that? Always remember, CC is next, then "evil rifles" then rifles then....they have done it before, they will continue to do so as long as it takes.

DO NOT say: well, I don't OC so I don't care if they restrict OC...believe me, the goal is not OC or CC, it is to completely disarm the people and the gun control crowd have shown since at least 1934 that they are willing to do it one little step at a time.

 

[Tangent123123]

I don't OC and I don't mind those that do. If I ever need to use a firearm I'd rather it was a suprise. To me it's like religion, politics, sexuality, whatever. Do what you do but don't wave it in my face. It doesn't need a special parade or t-shirt pointing it out or knocking at my door asking me to convert. Do your thing, don't draw attention and move on. You get more respect doing something and not being an attention whore about it then someone who tries to force feed it to you.

Unfortuntely that's what i've always believed. But so often now it's the vocal minority who get their way in this country. So what can you do? I guess for me I just continue to settle for quiet and tasteful. Starbucks has asked they not get dragged into the middle of all the BS and I can respect that. It's simply bad for business. So I think it shows a lack of tact to have 30 guys OCing walking into one of their stores to prove a point. They are already respecting us how things are, why beat them over the head with it?

 

[Kevatc]

A comparison for the people that think exercising 2nd amendment legal open carry is obnoxious/flaunting, do you also feel that African Americans walking around acting all "free" is flaunting the 13th amendment?

Sorry, I don't follow/understand your analogy. Seriously.

OK?

Neither do I. What the heck are you trying to say??? I thought we were debating the pro's and con's of OCing. What in the heck does race have to do with OCing??????

 

[Riot]

Quick question, how many shootings have occurred in Starbucks? Seriously, how many people have been murdered in a Starbucks? Maybe a few...world wide. Now, how many people have been gunned down in school zones? Court houses? Police stations? Banks? You know, most of those places that it is illegal to take a gun (depending on the state)?

Sooooo why are being hustled for taking their gun for a walk? Because you're against guns? Mkah, see gun owners aren't like most people...they don't hold parades or sue people for discrimination like homosexuals, but they do ask for equal rights and to be accepted among society. Seriously, imagine if I called the cops for someone with a rainbow sticker and a gay pride shirt.

Hey, gay marriage isn't legal in my state- so them being open about being gay must be illegal, right?


Some of you got that and laughed, some of you ran for your bible to bash a queer with...for the latter I think you are no better than the very people that assume all gun owners are criminals. So there's one to ponder for ya!

 

[pchewn]

Neither do I. What the heck are you trying to say??? I thought we were debating the pro's and con's of OCing. What in the heck does race have to do with OCing??????

I guess some people need a roadmap:

The 2nd amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

The 13th amendment:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation

People out in public openly carrying = Former slaves out in public openly being free = Each openly and rightly exercising their (xth) amendment rights.

Hope this spells it out to you clearly enough.

 

[civilian75]

^^^^^^^^ That, and, "exercising a right" <> "flaunting it".

 

[Riot]

Mkah, this is my thoughts on this...

Exercising your 2nd Amendment Right-


Flaunting your 2nd Amendment Right-


Any questions?

A right not used is not a right at all. I've always been against the practice of open carry, but it still should be a right.

 

[hermannr]

Having a gathering of OC advocates at a Starbucks is NOT "in your face". It showing support for a company that believes in Freedom. It is giving business to a company the believes in freedom, and I believe that Starbucks profits from that stance.

The OC advocate that has a "Coffee and Guns" tee shirt is also not "in your face". It is advertizing that the person likes Starbucks coffee, and he prefers to carry for his/her own self defence.

The tee shirt above that someone thinks is "flaunting it" is a lot less offensive than thousands of other tee shirts I have see. I see it as good....ask him, learn about your rights, join in with protecting yourself and stop relying on the government to protect you. If you think this "Icarry" tee shirt is "flaunting it" you have bought into the Brady bunch and their whole campaign.

How it works is if you remove OC from the public view, fewer people will be educated to their right to carry, and it will become easier for the Bradys and their supporters to get more control laws passed. Ignorance begets fear of the unknown. That is what the Brady bunch feeds on,...ignorance.

If you are really interested in YOUR right to carry, you will support and not disparage someone elses legal right to in whatever manner he/she wishes.

I know a lot of CC people have 101 reasons they don't OC. None of which addresses the real reason, they have bought into the antis campaign enough that they are ashamed of their carry and wish to hide the fact. or reason #2: fear of a LEO encounter. Neither are valid reasons not to OC or to look down on those that do. Is OC "In your face"? No, it is an opportunity to educate the public.

Added: Was Rosa Parks "in your face" when she decided to sit in the front of the bus?

 

[Sling Blade]

Originally Posted by Kevatc
Neither do I. What the heck are you trying to say??? I thought we were debating the pro's and con's of OCing. What in the heck does race have to do with OCing??????
I guess some people need a roadmap:

The 2nd amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
The 13th amendment:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation
People out in public openly carrying = Former slaves out in public openly being free = Each openly and rightly exercising their (xth) amendment rights.

Hope this spells it out to you clearly enough.

That is the most arcane, oblique, opaque, and convoluted attempt at an analogy I have ever read in my life.

 

[Riot]

Having a gathering of OC advocates at a Starbucks is NOT "in your face". It showing support for a company that believes in Freedom. It is giving business to a company the believes in freedom, and I believe that Starbucks profits from that stance.

I wholeheartedly argree.

The OC advocate that has a "Coffee and Guns" tee shirt is also not "in your face". It is advertizing that the person likes Starbucks coffee, and he prefers to carry for his/her own self defence.

Starting to disagree with you here, but reading on...

The tee shirt above that someone thinks is "flaunting it" is a lot less offensive than thousands of other tee shirts I have see. I see it as good....ask him, learn about your rights, join in with protecting yourself and stop relying on the government to protect you. If you think this "Icarry" tee shirt is "flaunting it" you have bought into the Brady bunch and their whole campaign.

I was more referring to the camera +T-Shirt +Open Carry, not just one thing...also noticed the little "Brady Campaign" jab there if someone disagrees with you, classy.

How it works is if you remove OC from the public view, fewer people will be educated to their right to carry, and it will become easier for the Bradys and their supporters to get more control laws passed. Ignorance begets fear of the unknown. That is what the Brady bunch feeds on,...ignorance.

True and False. All organizations with agendas hide certain details from the public and highlight other details to sway opinion for their cause. If you are ignorant on the subject then you may sway for the articulate party only stating the facts that pretain to their purpose. Nevertheless, "forced education methods" on open carry rights didn't work so well for California. So your argument of us gun owners needing to force educate the public by mobbing your nearest coffee shop probably isn't going to always get the outcome you desire.

If you are really interested in YOUR right to carry, you will support and not disparage someone elses legal right to in whatever manner he/she wishes.

So since I'm for the 1st Amendment, I should agree that it should be your right to run into a crowded theater and yell "FIRE!"?

Explain this logic to me. I'm not disagreeing with your right to carry a gun or defend yourself in any way. I'm not even disagreeing with you that you should have a right to carry openly. Nevertheless, these YouTube videos of dudes with an AR-15 slung over his shoulder wanting LEO contact isn't going to win the hearts and minds of anyone.

I know a lot of CC people have 101 reasons they don't OC. None of which addresses the real reason, they have bought into the antis campaign enough that they are ashamed of their carry and wish to hide the fact. or reason #2: fear of a LEO encounter. Neither are valid reasons not to OC or to look down on those that do. Is OC "In your face"? No, it is an opportunity to educate the public.

I don't OC for many reasons, but the main was is to not let anyone know I'm carrying a gun.

Added: Was Rosa Parks "in your face" when she decided to sit in the front of the bus?

Yeah, she kinda was. She put her foot down and decided that she was just as equal as the whites. The act of "sitting on the bus" wasn't the controversial thing she did. She defied the rules by not sitting in the back- which sparked the flames for equal rights. What Rosa Parks did was symbolic, bold and even brave. What you advocate is none of those things, just forcing your belief on others and pushing the limits of society's tollerance to firearms.

Like I've stated before, you might not get the outcome you desire.

So before you click the reply button, I want you to read something that I've been lurking on for a bit. I like the fact that OC advocates have volunteered their time to pick up garbage and perform other community service events. These kind of acts educate the public about people who carry firearms. Heck, I'd even be for going to Starbucks if they had an "Open Carry Day"! Nevertheless, what you advocate is just the opposite. You want confrontation and friction with the public, this I cannot condone. There are ways to prove to society that firearm owners aren't the bad guys, it is obvious that you are passionate about your ideals and I commend you for it, I just think it should be better focussed on showing the public that we're not a threat rather than this "it's my right, deal with it" mentality.

 

[Kevatc]

I guess some people need a roadmap:

Hope this spells it out to you clearly enough.

And some need to crawl down off their high horse. You want to open carry? Good for you. I don't think it's as great idea as you do. That's my 1A right to say. Good for me. One of the cool things about America .... I can disagree with you and I am still right.

 

[CamoDeafie]

That's my 1A right to say. Good for me. One of the cool things about America .... I can disagree with you and I am still right.

um..more like "I still have A right to disagree".....its your opinion though. my opinion is equally valid data as yours, and means nothing to the ATF or the Government...but means EVERYTHING to 1A.

 

[Buddhalux]

I wish they'd focus on a real problem that kills more people than guns do annualy. Such as vehicles and doctors.