Starbucks gun debate heats up

[Riot]

I guess perhaps you missed the point.

I don't understand why a person would pick a sidearm, and then a holster.. And spends how much money to get a wardrobe that works with it. When if one shops carefully you can find a weapon/holster combination that works with your already current wardrobe. (why you think this has something to do with fashion is beyond me)

herp derp.

And I was more referring to "big gun, should wear an OWB holster and a coat so I don't print"

 

[hermannr]

If it is cold, you wear a coat. If it is hot, you don't wear the coat, and you OC.

It is simple, you wear the coat for the cold, not the gun. I usually carry a full sized auto (CZ85), or even a larger revolver (6" Colt). Even my smallest gun (a CZ82) I wear outside, on the belt, with a leather thumb break holster. If I have a coat on, it is covered, If I don't have a coat on, it is not.

I do own a shoulder holster for the 85, but I just don't like wearing it. I also don't like it's retention method. I much prefer a belt holster.

 

[duran21]

open carry is fine and all, i dont think people should freak out when they see someone open carry in a holster... but in all reality, i dont want to get shot first when a gunmen opens fire just because i could shoot back.

 

[VW_Factor]

open carry is fine and all, i dont think people should freak out when they see someone open carry in a holster... but in all reality, i dont want to get shot first when a gunmen opens fire just because i could shoot back.

In all reality, its extremely unlikely that a gunman would open fire knowing there are other armed people/person about. Criminals have the same survival instincts LACs have. If you have a cite that shows what you fear is actually something likely to happen in such a scenario more power to you. A criminal isn't going to know if you are a LEO, FBI agent, or just some other guy with a gun when you OC. Do you think it would change the situation any if it was a uniformed LEO instead of a regular Joe OCer?

 

[hermannr]

open carry is fine and all, i dont think people should freak out when they see someone open carry in a holster... but in all reality, i dont want to get shot first when a gunmen opens fire just because i could shoot back.

The reality is: that is an unfounded fear/excuse

 

[soberups]

We are talking about two completely different things here.

If you OC on a daily basis because that is your preferred method of being armed, then more power to you. That is and should be your right.

If you OC for no other reason than to make some sort of political statement at a gathering of like-minded people, then you are pretty much preaching to the choir and it is highly unlikely that what you are doing is going to change the minds of people who dont like guns in the first place.

I admire Starbucks for doing its best to at least remain neutral on this issue, rather than taking the "easy way out" and banning open carry on its premises. I would question the wisdom of continuing to use its stores as a gathering place for OC events, because at some point its ownership may feel enough pressure from the antis that it will go ahead and enact an OC ban. In a perfect world there would be no concerns over where to hold an OC event.... but we dont live in a perfect world and if our goal is to win the battle of public opinion then sometimes a bit of tact and sensitivity is in order.

 

[Riot]

We are talking about two completely different things here.

If you OC on a daily basis because that is your preferred method of being armed, then more power to you. That is and should be your right.

If you OC for no other reason than to make some sort of political statement at a gathering of like-minded people, then you are pretty much preaching to the choir and it is highly unlikely that what you are doing is going to change the minds of people who dont like guns in the first place.
I admire Starbucks for doing its best to at least remain neutral on this issue, rather than taking the "easy way out" and banning open carry on its premises. I would question the wisdom of continuing to use its stores as a gathering place for OC events, because at some point its ownership may feel enough pressure from the antis that it will go ahead and enact an OC ban. In a perfect world there would be no concerns over where to hold an OC event.... but we dont live in a perfect world and if our goal is to win the battle of public opinion then sometimes a bit of tact and sensitivity is in order.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

 

[Trlsmn]

I guess perhaps you missed the point.

I don't understand why a person would pick a sidearm, and then a holster.. And spends how much money to get a wardrobe that works with it. When if one shops carefully you can find a weapon/holster combination that works with your already current wardrobe. (why you think this has something to do with fashion is beyond me)

herp derp.

Not to pick you out personally, with all the threads that devolve into left vs right, cop vs anti-cop this is the first thread I've ever seen devolve into a fashion debate.


Where is Playboypenguin when you need him...

 

[hermannr]

We are talking about two completely different things here.

If you OC on a daily basis because that is your preferred method of being armed, then more power to you. That is and should be your right.

If you OC for no other reason than to make some sort of political statement at a gathering of like-minded people, then you are pretty much preaching to the choir and it is highly unlikely that what you are doing is going to change the minds of people who dont like guns in the first place.

I admire Starbucks for doing its best to at least remain neutral on this issue, rather than taking the "easy way out" and banning open carry on its premises. I would question the wisdom of continuing to use its stores as a gathering place for OC events, because at some point its ownership may feel enough pressure from the antis that it will go ahead and enact an OC ban. In a perfect world there would be no concerns over where to hold an OC event.... but we dont live in a perfect world and if our goal is to win the battle of public opinion then sometimes a bit of tact and sensitivity is in order.

Here is the problem: Those that do not like firearms that they are members of ceasefire, just do not like firearms...they also do not have any concept of personal freedom and responsibility. To those people, you will never have a chance...it's a mental thing, and they will not recover no matter what is done.

There are approxamately 5000 members on ceasefire in WA.

Hard core fireams enthusast are the same in an opposite way. There are over 345,000 CPL holders in WA state and ?????? that just OC and have not bothered to get a CPL.

Now: You are in a business that retails to the public? You tell me which group you will cater to. No, Starbucks not only recognizes freedom, they understand the economic influence of the great disparity between the numbers of gun owners/antis. Just using CPL/CF the ratio is 69/1

You see, I totally disagree wth you. Starbucks open embrace of legal carry (in any form) makes great business sense. To have OC meets at a Starbucks also make business sense to them. it is a win/win for us.

Why are you buying into the puny anti bully? The antis bully attitude is why they have lost support. They are like a puffer fish. Just full of air.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Not to pick you out personally, with all the threads that devolve into left vs right, cop vs anti-cop this is the first thread I've ever seen devolve into a fashion debate.


Where is Playboypenguin when you need him...

Huh!?! What!? Who??? What did I miss? I was napping. I am old and I had to be at the Toy R Us (how do you make the keyboard do that R backwards?) at 5am today to stand in line for an hour to get a LeapPad and a Nabi tablet.

 

[Riot]

Socially unacceptable? Poor babies...

I could give a tinker d$%^ what other people think is socially unacceptable? Especially what an antigun advocate thinks. If you cowtow to them, they are going to think they have power to impose their values on me, and that is not going to happen.

And I say to any anti that feels it is socially unacceptable for me to carry a sidearm for self protection.."Grow up, that is not acting like an adult"

The reality is: that is an unfounded fear/excuse

The antis bully attitude is why they have lost support.

That is just on this thread, alone, hermannr...don't you think you are being a little hypocritical to badger fellow gun owners that dissagree with your stance on open carry but state that the failure for the Left-wing agenda is due to "bullying"?

 

[hermannr]

That is just on this thread, alone, hermannr...don't you think you are being a little hypocritical to badger fellow gun owners that dissagree with your stance on open carry but state that the failure for the Left-wing agenda is due to "bullying"?

Hypocritical? When someone who is supposedly a firearm owner/supporter buys into the the antis "OC is not socially acceptable" theme, yes, I am a bit intolorent, you bet, hypocritical? I don't think so. I am not attacking the mode of carry, you can conceal as much as you want, does not bother me at all...

but that is not the problem...The problem is the antis have made it their stated goal to kill OC and we (firearm owners) do not need to cowtow to their propaganda, in the end, it will hurt everyone. Do they realy want to kill OC? No, they want to kill all carry of any type anywhere...and make WA (and the rest of the states) just like DC and even more so like GB.

I am a very freedom loving person, and I believe everyone should be able to carry, in any manner they please, where ever they please, and generally am open to anyone doing "their own thing" as long as that does not hurt anyone else.

There is only one thing I have a very low tolorance for, and that is people who are anti freedom and/or will promote any anti-freedom propaganda.

 

[Dave Workman]

Someone alluded to it earlier, possibly because they read it in my column. I wrote about how CeaseFire is going to push for an open carry ban in Washington next year. That was back on Nov. 4

<broken link removed>

 

[Riot]

AGREED!
Everytime the gun owners in California gave and inch, the anti-gun crowd took a mile.
And, look where they are today!
DO NOT GIVE AN INCH!

Gave an inch? What ban was ever pre-approved through "California Gun Owners"? The California Assault Weapons ban? The 10-day waiting period? The caliber restrictions? The "May Issue" CCW process? I seriously doubt any of this was discussed with the gun owners of California prior to their incorporation. Then, when gun owners "pushed back" and began open carrying, they banned that too!

I don't think there is a single person that posts in this forum that is actually for more gun regulations, and I don't know why any of you think that any of us are advocating it. All soberups and I are saying is to try to be more tactful about the approach.

If you truly think that videotaping yourself marching up and down the street with a rifle slung on your shoulder, waiting for the police to interview you and subsequently post your interactions with said police on the internet is going to win over the community to your open carry side then GO FOR IT. You are absolutely right, it is your right to do it so F everyone else that doesn't like it...just don't come crying to me for lawyer money to sue the system after the fact.

 

[hermannr]

If you truly think that videotaping yourself marching up and down the street with a rifle slung on your shoulder, waiting for the police to interview you and subsequently post your interactions with said police on the internet is going to win over the community to your open carry side then GO FOR IT. You are absolutely right, it is your right to do it so F everyone else that doesn't like it...just don't come crying to me for lawyer money to sue the system after the fact.

Riot: Is that what you think when you hear OC? You have to be kidding me. I have OC'd since 1970 here in WA state. I have never even owned a video camera, and probably never will. In 40+ years I have had one MWAG call on me, it ended up with a two word discussion with a Chelan Co Sheriff's Deptuty...Deputy: "hunting?" Me: "Yep"... as I continued to load supplies into my camper. End of discussion. Why would I want a camara, I have enough junk with me when I am hunting or doing anything?

I have carried into banks, restaurants, department stores, hardware stores, the state capitol, you name it, my carry has been there with me. I have been asked to leave, and I have left (and never gone back to that place of business) but I have never recorded anything, and never felt the need to. I don't go around trying to stir the pot, I just do my daily business my way. I see no need to get into a civil rights suit with any juristiction. I will stand my ground:

PS: Thanks Dave, I was the one making reference to your excellent article on CeaseFire. Always remember "a house divided against itself cannot stand"

Now, if I am going hunting, or if I have just come out of the woods from hunting, yes, I could have a hunting rifle with me and I see no problem with that. I could also be coming from a gun store and just going to my car with a rifle...what is wrong with that? That type of OC is not my norm, but it is legal and I do not want it restricted either.

FYI: I do have a CPL and I do make use of it by carrying loaded in my car, and when I have a coat on in winter, like now, but my carry is always the same...no coat, OC, longer coat, CC, take coat off OC...I never dress for my carry, and I don't purchase guns just so I can conceal. I buy what I want, when I want, and I wear what I want when I want to. Also, I have never been asked to see my CPL, ever. Maybe one of the advantages of living in Okanogan County, but we have also lived in Skagit Co. And Sedro Woolley Logger Rodeo 1970 was when I was introduced to OC. Never looked back.

 

[duran21]

@hermannr- if you OC, more power to you, its not how I carry, simple as that. believe me when i say this, if the state was looking to make OC illegal, every one of us on here would be fighting it, even if we dont all choose to OC like you.

 

[TCOV]

Wow this thread started in March of 2010 and still going strong. I can't tell if it is still about Starbucks though.

 

[VW_Factor]

Not to pick you out personally, with all the threads that devolve into left vs right, cop vs anti-cop this is the first thread I've ever seen devolve into a fashion debate.


Where is Playboypenguin when you need him...

Step up eh?

I for one think PlayboyPenguins fashion sense in impeccable!

 

[Ought Six]

When it comes to open carry, there are two viewpoints I try to strike a balance between: I try not to cause trouble unnecessarily, but I stand by my rights.

In this case, I do not like a lot of what I see in this thread. I do not think that holding a meeting of people open carrying in a Starbucks is 'causing trouble'. If the owner has a problem with people openly carrying in his business, then he can post a 'No Firearms' sign on the door. That would be quite fair, and I would respect it by never patronizing that establishment. Starbucks has chosen not to post such signs, which is a de facto invitation for those carrying openly or covertly to come right in.

The part that I do not like is the suggestion that we should not open carry because it might frighten or offend someone who does not like guns or does not understand the law and inalienable rights involved in that situation. So far as I am concerned, this is akin to saying that certain political speech should be limited in public for fear of offending someone. Screw that! If you wish to make a political statement by openly carrying, that is your right as an American citizen. I will take that a step further and say that the only rights we deserve to have are the ones we are willing to assert and fight for. By allowing us to be bullied into not carrying for fear of peoples' reaction is like self-censoring our political speech for fear that someone might not like what we say. If we voluntarily give up our rights at the first social challenge, we have no rights, and deserve none. We must not be ruled by fear; our own or others'.

So I have to err on the side of supporting those who choose to boldly assert their rights, within the law. Yes, some folks may be frightened or offended. LEOs may be upset, and react badly. But part of the reason for doing this in the first place is to educate people and stimulate discussion. So long as the person openly carrying is obeying the law and not being rude, aggressive or stupid, thier open carriage of firearms is something that should be supported by us all. It should be a commonplace and accepted practice. In fact, we should be proud that some among us have the courage to stand up and assert the rights we all have to insure they are clearly established, not just in law, but in police policy and common practice. They are doing us all a service.

That being said, I will make one criticism of those who I have seen openly carrying. If you are going to open carry in an urban environment, surrounded by strangers, I think it is damned irresponsible not to be carrying in a snatch-resistant holster. None of us are hypervigilant enough to prevent a criminal, mentally ill person or just a total dumbass from snatching our weapon. A simple thumbreak strap is insufficient security. A Level II retention holster is, IMO, the minimum acceptable carry mode. Level III is better.