So you want a custom muzzle loading rifle....

[Andy54Hawken]

Here are some things to consider...

Just what is your intended use of the rifle...?
I have seen some mighty fine shooting done with a off the shelf Pedersoli , Thompson Center , Traditions , etc..rifle.
One does not need a custom rifle to shoot well.

With that said...
A custom rifle that is set up , say for shooting round balls with a deep slow rifling twist ...
Having a lock with a leaf main spring instead of a modern coil spring....nice set style triggers and the like...
Will help you shoot better than a off the shelf rifle , with a twist depth that is better suited for a modern cartridge rifle , a lock with sluggish coil spring...etc...

But with that said...
Shooting better ...involves practice as well as better shooting practices....not necessarily a new or custom rifle.

Now if you want a rifle that is more historic in looks....
Custom is often the best way to go.
Many of the models offered by the above makers , while claiming to be a replica of or having the name of a famous rifle....
Are to be blunt , lacking in many of the details , to make the rifle a historically accurate copy of anything.

Some things to think about with your more historic custom rifle...
What time period rifle do you want....
A Hawken rifle makes a fine late Rendezvous rifle ...but won't work for the Revolutionary War...
Nor will it really work for many fur trappers...as even in its period of "common use"....it was a expensive rifle ...
Often double the cost of a "Trade Rifle".

A fine Lancaster Style Flint Long Rifle can be a work of art...And be just the thing for the Revolutionary War , War of 1812 , early western fur trade...
But a rifle that was made in say 1770...could have seen a lot of use by 1830....and may even have been converted to percussion or shortened...etc...

Speaking of "a fine Lancaster Style Flint Long Rifle"....
Long Rifles ( Popularly known as "Kentucky Rifles or "Pennsylvania Rifles" ) come in a bewildering array of styles and calibers.

Styles varied from county to county in the case of Pennsylvania ...as well as state to state...
A Virginia Style Long Rifle will look different than Lancaster Style Long Rifle.
And Lancaster county style Long Rifle will look different than a Bucks county style Long Rifle.
Styles also varied between makers..even in the same county.
These styles and calibers also changed over the years....
Confused yet...?

What you may be thinking of when asking for a Lancaster Style Long Rifle , may be different that what the rifle maker is thinking of.
So be sure to ask questions of your rifle maker....Do your homework beforehand , so you can tell him or her , just what it is , you actually want.

Also a thing to consider is just how historically accurate do you want to go...?
Sights on period rifles...are low....like shotgun bead low...
At times the trigger pull was short and stock drop can be problematic as well with a antique rifle.

A custom rifle costs money....a lot of it.
'Course there is the notion and use of better than average parts involved...not to forget the work by the maker and their artistic talent.
A custom rifle is a work of art...a work of art , takes both talent and skill.
Things like timing and tuning a lock , carving and inlays , engraving on a patchbox....heck just installing a patchbox takes work and talent...
All of this will add up price wise.
An average price for a "generic custom muzzle loading rifle " will be around $1,300 on up for new....

Some outfits will build you a gun in "the white"...which means that the rifle is assembled...and ready to be fired...
But the wood and metal needs a final sanding , polishing , and finishing....this can bring the costs down a bit.
The used market is also good place to look for a lower cost custom gun.

If one does not want to go through all of that expense and time....
Many off the shelf rifles can be "upgraded"....
One can buy a better lock or barrel...
A stock can be re-shaped...sights can be fitted...
Patchboxes engraved or installed....
This is a excellent way to turn a off the shelf rifle ...either one you have or one you will buy , into a "custom rifle".

Or do you want a hunting rifle and to heck with all this historic foolishness...
On traditional muzzle loading rifles...sling swivels are uncommon...this may be a feature you want.
Swapping out a #11 cap and nipple for a Musket Cap and nipple may not go amiss...
Some barrel makers make a rifle barrel with a traditional rifle profile , but with a fast twist for conical bullets , sabots and the like...
( Not that you can't hunt with round ball...)
Many states allow fiber optic sights....
Again....things to ask your rifle maker about , before you have him or her build you one.

One last thing to consider...is resale value....
Its only worth something to someone , if they like what is there or have a use for it....
No matter how well it is made , if it is made by a famous maker....etc...
If the buyer doesn't like it or have a use for it...then there is no value in the rifle , for them.
Andy

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[Ura-Ki]

Been going down this road a long while now, and we now have the two little ones building their first muzzle loaders and all that goes with them. a pair of "Trade rifles" with hand picked parts and then the work to make it all work together! Learning to knap flints, and tune the locks. learning about molding ball and conical and making powder and how to corn it to the proper size and then test it's F rating! Carving the stocks, making the patch boxes, and dressing them out as desired! We are also learning the history of muzzloading, hunting, and trades of the times, and how this Great Country became so great!

Having shown off a few of my Colts along side their Dads and Grand Dads black power arms, the kiddos are hooked! Learning is almost as much fun as doing, and getting to build ones first firearm is a life lesson in it's self! Cant wait to see them shoot them the first time!

 

[TTSX]

Sounds like a custom muzzle loader is much more custom than a lot of these "custom" centerfires slapped together these days. Neat lunch break read

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Sounds like a custom muzzle loader is much more custom than a lot of these "custom" centerfires slapped together these days. Neat lunch break read

Many parts...even those that are factory replacement "drop in " parts....Often require handfitting....
So yeah not much slapping it together....
Andy

 

[Member 52301]

Andy,

Is there a 'shortage' on BP rifles right now in all kinds of styles or in just specific ones?

What about BP revolvers? Any shortages there from what you read on a regular basis?

What about black powder itself? Shortages there?

Any shortages in other basic supplies when it comes to making BP ammunition?

With a 54 Caliber Rifle - how many rounds (Proper word?) would ONE as in 1 POUND of black powder make if you were shooting that caliber?

Are you making ONE BASIC ROUND (Same grain if that is the proper word?) for the 54 Caliber Rifle as an all purpose ROUND for hunting and for self defense?

What is your favorite brand of black powder?

What is the cost per pound of black powder if you buy it in a store in your state of WA?

(I know what my MT husband's reloading smokeless powders cost in the past and what they cost now IF you can find them. We do not need any item there.)

What does ONE BP ROUND for a 54 Caliber Rife cost if you calculated the entire cost of making ONE ROUND?

Thank you.

Cate

 

[jj500]

The difference in shooting a custom rifle is like the difference between driving a Camry and a Rolls Royce.Not to say either one will get you there better but you will enjoy the ride in the Rolls more.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Andy,

Is there a 'shortage' on BP rifles right now in all kinds of styles or in just specific ones?

What about BP revolvers? Any shortages there from what you read on a regular basis?

What about black powder itself? Shortages there?

Any shortages in other basic supplies when it comes to making BP ammunition?

With a 54 Caliber Rifle - how many rounds (Proper word?) would ONE as in 1 POUND of black powder make if you were shooting that caliber?

Are you making ONE BASIC ROUND (Same grain if that is the proper word?) for the 54 Caliber Rifle as an all purpose ROUND for hunting and for self defense?

What is your favorite brand of black powder?

What is the cost per pound of black powder if you buy it in a store in your state of WA?

(I know what my MT husband's reloading smokeless powders cost in the past and what they cost now IF you can find them. We do not need any item there.)

What does ONE BP ROUND for a 54 Caliber Rife cost if you calculated the entire cost of making ONE ROUND?

Thank you.

Cate

Hiya Cate
Sorry for the late reply.

Where I live and where I look for firearms that are for sale , there doesn't seem to be a shortage of any.
Be they traditional firearms , revolvers or modern in-line styles.

Black powder can be iffy at times.
I like GOEX , I use 2F for all my shooting , be it rifles , muskets , handguns , shotguns , etc...
( BP comes in different "grades" / fineness of powder.
4F is commonly used as priming powder , 3F for small calibers and handguns , 2F for large calibers )

Not sure how many shots I get from a pound of powder.
32 balls make about a pound of .54 caliber round balls.
I use 80 grains for all my shooting ....be it hunting or target work.
A .54 round ball weighs around 220 grains.

Hope the above helps.
Andy
GOEX costs around $25 a pound.

 

[Member 52301]

^^^

Thank you!

Cate

 

[DunRanull]

Here are some things to consider...

Just what is your intended use of the rifle...?
I have seen some mighty fine shooting done with a off the shelf Pedersoli , Thompson Center , Traditions , etc..rifle.
One does not need a custom rifle to shoot well.

With that said...
A custom rifle that is set up , say for shooting round balls with a deep slow rifling twist ...
Having a lock with a leaf main spring instead of a modern coil spring....nice set style triggers and the like...
Will help you shoot better than a off the shelf rifle , with a twist depth that is better suited for a modern cartridge rifle , a lock with sluggish coil spring...etc...

But with that said...
Shooting better ...involves practice as well as better shooting practices....not necessarily a new or custom rifle.

Now if you want a rifle that is more historic in looks....
Custom is often the best way to go.
Many of the models offered by the above makers , while claiming to be a replica of or having the name of a famous rifle....
Are to be blunt , lacking in many of the details , to make the rifle a historically accurate copy of anything.

Some things to think about with your more historic custom rifle...
What time period rifle do you want....
A Hawken rifle makes a fine late Rendezvous rifle ...but won't work for the Revolutionary War...
Nor will it really work for many fur trappers...as even in its period of "common use"....it was a expensive rifle ...
Often double the cost of a "Trade Rifle".

A fine Lancaster Style Flint Long Rifle can be a work of art...And be just the thing for the Revolutionary War , War of 1812 , early western fur trade...
But a rifle that was made in say 1770...could have seen a lot of use by 1830....and may even have been converted to percussion or shortened...etc...

Speaking of "a fine Lancaster Style Flint Long Rifle"....
Long Rifles ( Popularly known as "Kentucky Rifles or "Pennsylvania Rifles" ) come in a bewildering array of styles and calibers.

Styles varied from county to country in the case of Pennsylvania ...as well as state to state...
A Virginia Style Long Rifle will look different than Lancaster Style Long Rifle.
And Lancaster county style Long Rifle will look different than a Bucks county style Long Rifle.
Styles also varied between makers..even in the same county.
These styles and calibers also changed over the years....
Confused yet...?

What you may be thinking of when asking for a Lancaster Style Long Rifle , may be different that what the rifle maker is thinking of.
So be sure to ask questions of your rifle maker....Do your homework beforehand , so you can tell him or her , just what it is , you actually want.

Also a thing to consider is just how historically accurate do you want to go...?
Sights on period rifles...are low....like shotgun bead low...
At times the trigger pull was short and stock drop can be problematic as well with a antique rifle.

A custom rifle costs money....a lot of it.
'Course there is the notion and use of better than average parts involved...not to forget the work by the maker and their artistic talent.
A custom rifle is a work of art...a work of art , takes both talent and skill.
Things like timing and tuning a lock , carving and inlays , engraving on a patchbox....heck just installing a patchbox takes work and talent...
All of this will add up price wise.
An average price for a "generic custom muzzle loading rifle " will be around $1,300 on up for new....

Some outfits will build you a gun in "the white"...which means that the rifle is assembled...and ready to be fired...
But the wood and metal needs a final sanding , polishing , and finishing....this can bring the costs down a bit.
The used market is also good place to look for a lower cost custom gun.

If one does not want to go through all of that expense and time....
Many off the shelf rifles can be "upgraded"....
One can buy a better lock or barrel...
A stock can be re-shaped...sights can be fitted...
Patchboxes engraved or installed....
This is a excellent way to turn a off the shelf rifle ...either one you have or one you will buy , into a "custom rifle".

Or do you want a hunting rifle and to heck with all this historic foolishness...
On traditional muzzle loading rifles...sling swivels are uncommon...this may be a feature you want.
Swapping out a #11 cap and nipple for a Musket Cap and nipple may not go amiss...
Some barrel makers make a rifle barrel with a traditional rifle profile , but with a fast twist for conical bullets , sabots and the like...
( Not that you can't hunt with round ball...)
Many states allow fiber optic sights....
Again....things to ask your rifle maker about , before you have him or her build you one.

One last thing to consider...is resale value....
Its only worth something to someone , if they like what is there or have a use for it....
No matter how well it is made , if it is made by a famous maker....etc...
If the buyer doesn't like it or have a use for it...then there is no value in the rifle , for them.
Andy

Andy- I too like the .54 "Hawken"-style, and have one in flint and another perc... Point me in the direction of what might be a "trade rifle"... I suppose that would vary with the time period? And in general carried by Indians... Saw a few muskets and rifles years ago in Michigan, some modern repos and others the actual thing, and most were flinters. Most trade rifles were flinters? Without meaning to flatter, you are one of the most knowledgeable "musketeers" Ive known in a very long time.. and seem to be the logical person to ask . Answer at your leisure- Thanks!

 

[osprey]

Andy,

Is there a 'shortage' on BP rifles right now in all kinds of styles or in just specific ones?

What about BP revolvers? Any shortages there from what you read on a regular basis?

What about black powder itself? Shortages there?

Any shortages in other basic supplies when it comes to making BP ammunition?

With a 54 Caliber Rifle - how many rounds (Proper word?) would ONE as in 1 POUND of black powder make if you were shooting that caliber?

Are you making ONE BASIC ROUND (Same grain if that is the proper word?) for the 54 Caliber Rifle as an all purpose ROUND for hunting and for self defense?

What is your favorite brand of black powder?

What is the cost per pound of black powder if you buy it in a store in your state of WA?

(I know what my MT husband's reloading smokeless powders cost in the past and what they cost now IF you can find them. We do not need any item there.)

What does ONE BP ROUND for a 54 Caliber Rife cost if you calculated the entire cost of making ONE ROUND?

Thank you.

Cate

Using simple math with 7000 grains in a pound of powder, one should get around 87 shots per pound of powder using a 80gr charge.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Andy- I too like the .54 "Hawken"-style, and have one in flint and another perc... Point me in the direction of what might be a "trade rifle"... I suppose that would vary with the time period? And in general carried by Indians... Saw a few muskets and rifles years ago in Michigan, some modern repos and others the actual thing, and most were flinters. Most trade rifles were flinters? Without meaning to flatter, you are one of the most knowledgeable "musketeers" Ive known in a very long time.. and seem to be the logical person to ask . Answer at your leisure- Thanks!

Thank you for the kind words...they mean a lot....

Trade Rifles are rifles made to be used for the fur trade.
They were both used by fur traders and trappers as personal arms...as well as being sold or traded to the tribes.

Trade Rifles can be both flint or percussion...depending on the era.
As a general rule...most flint lock Trade Rifles are early as in pre - 1840.
That said many flint lock Trade Rifles can be dated to the "percussion era" ( circa 1830 and later* )

With that said...Some of the earliest percussion guns , were for use in the fur trade...
Anything to make a buck.
So if you have percussion gun you need percussion caps...and percussion caps could generally only be bought from a fur trader / fur trade post , on the frontier.

And then with that said....
That old saw of " You can use any old rock to shoot yer flint lock , if you lose your flint."...
Ain't true...So flints were also sold , bought , traded and given away by the millions.

* Yes I know that the percussion system was introduced in the mid - 1820's , but it really didn't start to catch on / be popular in many areas until the mid to late 1830's.
They didn't have FED EX or UPS to ship out the newest in guns overnight....or have forums to bash the old firearms and sing the praises of the new style firearms....

Trade Rifles are just "plainer" versions of the then popular sporting rifles of the time period.
These rifles range in caliber from about .36 - about .58 , depending on area where sold or traded and customer / traders demands.
Trade Rifles can also be full or half stock rifles.

Lyman makes a good off the shelf late period ( 1850 - 1870 ) era Trade Rifle.
Otherwise your choice for a historically correct one , is custom or an original antique one.
Andy
Edit to add :
Trade Rifles were made by contract and on a "assembly line".
One guy made stocks , another worked on locks , someone else put the rifles together, etc...
Leman , J. Dickert , J.Henry , Derringer are some of the more famous makers of Trade Rifles.

 

[EPS]

Att. @Andy54Hawken
I wonder how much it will sell for.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@EPS
I have seen that rifle and it is lovely...thank you for posting that.
As for how much....more than I will ever be able to spend on a rifle...
Andy

 

[EPS]

It's up for sell on December 4 and 5 .

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Well it would make a great Christmas present for anyone to gift to me.....
Andy

 

[EPS]

Well it would make a great Christmas present for anyone to gift to me.....
Andy

I'm going to check my lotto ticket tomorrow.
Lol

 

[Ura-Ki]

#metoo!
Andy needs a new Hawkin!

 

[Bon Sauvage]

It has a seven groove .52 caliber barrel. I shore would like to have this.

 

[tac]

What does ONE BP ROUND for a 54 Caliber Rife cost if you calculated the entire cost of making ONE ROUND?

Supplies for making BP ammunition?

Like what?

All you need is lead and a source of heat hot enough to melt it.

I can't tell you how much it costs to make just ONE round of ANY BP projectile, but I got all my lead - about 1/4 ton of it - for free when the local church changed over to 'fake lead' to stop the pikies stealing it every few years. True, I shared it out, so my share is now down to about 350# or so, but I can make .44cal ball for about $2 per hundred. That's using electricity, though.

I also make .58cal Minié ball and they weigh around 12 to the pound AD. I 'spose I could work out the cost but I've never had to before. So ax yourself, do you really want to put an old man to all the trouble?

 

[tac]

Many parts...even those that are factory replacement "drop in " parts....Often require handfitting....
So yeah not much slapping it together....
Andy

Time to introduce a few folks here to Mr Jim Kibler......................................................