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#2
Mike Rousseau disagrees.
#3
Mike Rousseau disagrees.
#3
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Self-defense fact vs fiction article
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1) "Several TTAG commentators has posited that this kind of "showboating" is SOP in many urban areas, often used to provide cover for shoplifters."
Even better reason to GTFO.
2) "I really don't understand your reasons for using less effective bullets for attackers in your home."
I see no reason to use less effective ammo anywhere.
3) "I use ball in my mouse guns, .32 &.380, because I am leery of the HP's doing the job."
Mouseguns are a different ballgame.
Even better reason to GTFO.
2) "I really don't understand your reasons for using less effective bullets for attackers in your home."
I see no reason to use less effective ammo anywhere.
3) "I use ball in my mouse guns, .32 &.380, because I am leery of the HP's doing the job."
Mouseguns are a different ballgame.
Xray not included in reposting this story - bb
Several years back, I took this radiograph on a patient of mine, and I shared it with James Yeager and a few friends in the training community. As luck would have it, the picture and my short narrative, somehow came across Clint Smith's desk. He shared it through his channels, and before long, this image was all over the interwebs.
Maybe you saw it back then? If you didn't, let me refresh your memory! This patient came to me, at my dental office, for two reasons (it bears mention at this point that I'm not your regular dentist that does whitening and teaches you how to brush…I mostly address abscesses, rotten teeth, and dental trauma in the Hispanic population of Middle Tennessee) FIRST: he couldn't open his mouth, and SECOND: he was concerned that whenever he drank water, it came out his nose. Hmm…well, neither of these things is normal, so as is the custom in my office, the patient's blood pressure and pulse are taken, their medical history is reviewed, and any necessary radiographs are made.
Imagine my surprise when I inquired about the patient's black eye and small abrasion/laceration beneath his right eye. (In Spanish). "Oh, I got shot."
"You WHAT?" I exclaimed.
"I got shot in the face. I was minding my own business when a narco hit me with his pistol then shot me. I passed out. I woke up, and decided I needed to get out of there before the narcos realized I was alive. So I got on a few buses and came here, to Nashville."
After the X-ray, and my clinical exam, it was easy to see what happened. The bullet (a Federal 230 grain Hydrashok) entered the patient's midface, at a downward angle, and traveled through his maxillary sinus, exiting through the maxillary tuberosity, shattering the first and second molars, and entering his mouth (depositing pieces of jacket along the way), then spiraled through his mouth, into the right mandible, and then fragmented, leaving a large hunk of the jacket entangled just above the substance of his right parotid gland, THEN the remaining core of the projectile went left, further tumbling through his mouth and buccal mucosa, coming to rest in front of the tissue of his left auditory meatus.
So his chief complaints of not being able to open his mouth made sense, since the bullet had effectively, "door chocked," his jaw from fully opening, mostly due to soft tissue swelling as well as the mechanical presence of the bullet's core. Also, he had what we call an, "oral antral communication," meaning the wall between his sinuses in his nose and the space inside of his mouth, were one. Hence, the water when he drinks, coming out his nose.
When this information got out, people said silly things like, ".45…so puny it'll send the badguys to the dentist!" And other dumb nonsense. But think about this from a defensive gun use perspective (even though THE facts of this case may have been otherwise) where the bullet actually did it's job! It was delivered to a vital area, did a considerable amount of internal damage, fully deposited all of its energy in the target, and made the recipient lose consciousness, instantly, at least for a indeterminate amount of time (he estimated five minutes or longer). From a civilian self defense perspective, if I was forced to use THAT round delivered to that location, I'd consider that effect, a success! That would give me enough time to run away, call 911, or get to a secure (or more secure area).
Bottom line, handgun projectiles suck at stopping people. But this one, DID, in this instance. It stopped them quite effectively, so much so, that they left the damn country! .45's aren't a death ray, but they CAN stop people from doing whatever it was they were doing!
.45 ACP to the Midface
Several years back, I took this radiograph on a patient of mine, and I shared it with James Yeager and a few friends in the training community. As luck would have it, the picture and my short narrative, somehow came across Clint Smith's desk. He shared it through his channels, and before long, this image was all over the interwebs.
Maybe you saw it back then? If you didn't, let me refresh your memory! This patient came to me, at my dental office, for two reasons (it bears mention at this point that I'm not your regular dentist that does whitening and teaches you how to brush…I mostly address abscesses, rotten teeth, and dental trauma in the Hispanic population of Middle Tennessee) FIRST: he couldn't open his mouth, and SECOND: he was concerned that whenever he drank water, it came out his nose. Hmm…well, neither of these things is normal, so as is the custom in my office, the patient's blood pressure and pulse are taken, their medical history is reviewed, and any necessary radiographs are made.
Imagine my surprise when I inquired about the patient's black eye and small abrasion/laceration beneath his right eye. (In Spanish). "Oh, I got shot."
"You WHAT?" I exclaimed.
"I got shot in the face. I was minding my own business when a narco hit me with his pistol then shot me. I passed out. I woke up, and decided I needed to get out of there before the narcos realized I was alive. So I got on a few buses and came here, to Nashville."
After the X-ray, and my clinical exam, it was easy to see what happened. The bullet (a Federal 230 grain Hydrashok) entered the patient's midface, at a downward angle, and traveled through his maxillary sinus, exiting through the maxillary tuberosity, shattering the first and second molars, and entering his mouth (depositing pieces of jacket along the way), then spiraled through his mouth, into the right mandible, and then fragmented, leaving a large hunk of the jacket entangled just above the substance of his right parotid gland, THEN the remaining core of the projectile went left, further tumbling through his mouth and buccal mucosa, coming to rest in front of the tissue of his left auditory meatus.
So his chief complaints of not being able to open his mouth made sense, since the bullet had effectively, "door chocked," his jaw from fully opening, mostly due to soft tissue swelling as well as the mechanical presence of the bullet's core. Also, he had what we call an, "oral antral communication," meaning the wall between his sinuses in his nose and the space inside of his mouth, were one. Hence, the water when he drinks, coming out his nose.
When this information got out, people said silly things like, ".45…so puny it'll send the badguys to the dentist!" And other dumb nonsense. But think about this from a defensive gun use perspective (even though THE facts of this case may have been otherwise) where the bullet actually did it's job! It was delivered to a vital area, did a considerable amount of internal damage, fully deposited all of its energy in the target, and made the recipient lose consciousness, instantly, at least for a indeterminate amount of time (he estimated five minutes or longer). From a civilian self defense perspective, if I was forced to use THAT round delivered to that location, I'd consider that effect, a success! That would give me enough time to run away, call 911, or get to a secure (or more secure area).
Bottom line, handgun projectiles suck at stopping people. But this one, DID, in this instance. It stopped them quite effectively, so much so, that they left the damn country! .45's aren't a death ray, but they CAN stop people from doing whatever it was they were doing!
.45 ACP to the Midface
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Center mass is your friend! Practice, Practice, Practice!
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We were taught to shoot a handgun at anything that you can see, even if the BG is only revealing part of a foot/arm/head, working on the premise that a few 9mm NATO rounds in the ankle/sole of the foot/elbow are surely going to sting - maybe enough for the recipient to show more of his face, whereupon you empty the rest of the magazine into the face and head.
Then instantly change magazines.
Like Colour Sergeant S used to say - 'Shoot 'em in the face - any face is good'. And 'lots of bullets is good - it's not as though you have to pay for them, is it?'
As an example of dishing out ammunition on a generous scale, Soldier B, second man into the Iranian embassy in the famous [in yUK] 1980 siege, was asked why he'd put thirty-two rounds of 9mm into just one terrorist. His reply is legendary - 'M'lord, that's all I had with me at the time.'
Then instantly change magazines.
Like Colour Sergeant S used to say - 'Shoot 'em in the face - any face is good'. And 'lots of bullets is good - it's not as though you have to pay for them, is it?'
As an example of dishing out ammunition on a generous scale, Soldier B, second man into the Iranian embassy in the famous [in yUK] 1980 siege, was asked why he'd put thirty-two rounds of 9mm into just one terrorist. His reply is legendary - 'M'lord, that's all I had with me at the time.'
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This fellow shot his aggressor six times... aggressor was slightly injured. Methinks he needs some practice/training!
Kentucky burglary suspect shot after breaking into home, allegedly undressing in child's bedroom
Kentucky burglary suspect shot after breaking into home, allegedly undressing in child's bedroom
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Mas is the best resource I've found. He has a lifetime of real experience from field work to court work issues.
Regarding the hollow-point point...I shoot small caliber pistols due to hand weakness. I have heard from several sources that ball ammo is best in 380 ammo due to the lack of penetration with 380 hps. I have seen some data on penetration, by the FBI as I recall, but don't recall any 380 tests; I used to shoot 9mm, but can't hold the pistol well; I loaded hps with the 9.
Regarding the hollow-point point...I shoot small caliber pistols due to hand weakness. I have heard from several sources that ball ammo is best in 380 ammo due to the lack of penetration with 380 hps. I have seen some data on penetration, by the FBI as I recall, but don't recall any 380 tests; I used to shoot 9mm, but can't hold the pistol well; I loaded hps with the 9.
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Pistols are a very poor choice of firearm for defensive situations, but they ARE about the ONLY option we have for a carry firearm, so we need to make choices, and often those choices are not the best, but they should be the best for each of us! the whole caliber debate is a useless, never ending discourse that can never reach a definitive answer!
Bullets do funny things on impact, and we are trying to make them do things with in a narrow scope and we expect them to preform the exact same way in every conceivable way we would ever use them!
Having seen first hand what a bullet can do to a human body, and what should have been a lethal shot that wasn't, and what did cause death, I know there is no perfect answer! I choose the one that is going to give ME the best chances of success, and I don't give a rats behind what any court, jury, or attorney has to say on the matter! I choose to live, and I choose the best possible tool to give me the best chance I can have while carrying with on the limits of a Pistol!
Bullets do funny things on impact, and we are trying to make them do things with in a narrow scope and we expect them to preform the exact same way in every conceivable way we would ever use them!
Having seen first hand what a bullet can do to a human body, and what should have been a lethal shot that wasn't, and what did cause death, I know there is no perfect answer! I choose the one that is going to give ME the best chances of success, and I don't give a rats behind what any court, jury, or attorney has to say on the matter! I choose to live, and I choose the best possible tool to give me the best chance I can have while carrying with on the limits of a Pistol!
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Would be curious to be able to see both what caliber he was shot with and where he was hit. Does sound like another case of a drug Zombie. Some scary ones roaming around.
FTA:
"A physical struggle then broke out, with Bracey striking Oliver with a broom before he began to be overtaken "due to the suspect's size," according to an arrest report obtained by WDRB.
After yelling for help, Burton got a gun from her bedroom and handed it to her boyfriend, who then was able to get up and fire several rounds at Oliver"
I recommend next time he starts with the gun, instead of the broom
Makes me wonder if he was yelling "shoo" while wielding said broom...
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Why is he hitting someone with his Mother in Laws transportation is what I want to know.
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I was just about to point out, If I had used my "Chief Test Pilot's Broom" It wouldda got me hexed or sumthin not nice!
I swear they all earn their Wings by the age of 2!
I don't think we'll ever know what caliber due to lack of follow up on these smallish stories, but in the picture the guy looks to be doing fine although in a wheelchair. I thought maybe he was hit in the guts and in peripheral areas.
I took a look at some of the discussion on the interwebs regarding .380 JHP vs FMJ... it's all over the place with personal opinions, just like the caliber wars.
However, I did note that typical self defense .380 loadings penetrate between 12 and (14.5" Hornady 95gr XTP consistently reached that far)... the FBI standard for service pistols being 12" and the standard for backup pistols being 6-9" (.380 is considered a backup pistol). The gel test expansion for both 9mmJHP and .380JHP is nearly the same at around .55" so any differential in penetration there is strictly due to case capacity. Therefore, it would seem that the .380JHP in quality loadings meets what would be needed for adequate body penetration, with less worry about shoot thru(s).
I've seen a number of case studies where bangers have been killed with .380ACP ball ammo. No info was given on how long it took for the deceased to go down, but cross body penetration was typical, as well as bullets changing trajectory inside the body due to hitting ribs, etc, on entry. Several bullets broke up on ribs and pieces transited the chest cavity or wound up in neck, arms, groin, etc. As Ura-Ki mentioned, bullets in bodies do funny things, and perps all react differently to trauma. Some are tough, some give up the fight sooner. You just never know, but regardless carry the most powerful loading that you can shoot accurately.
I carry my wife's .380 pocket pistol at times. I use JHP loads in it because in my own research I have come to believe that 12-14.5", or even 6-9", of penetration is plenty to reach the pulmonary arteries, the aorta, or the heart from a side-on body shot. Accuracy wins every time, so if one can shoot under stress at reasonable distances there's probably not a lot of difference between FMJ and JHP in killing power, but maybe some in stopping power. Seems to be held out in case studies where FMJ is used by law enforcement and military. Many law enforcement agencies are now allowing their officers to switch to JHP to stop perps sooner.
Conventional wisdom, if there is such a thing, says to use ball ammo in .380 or smaller for better penetration... but I've never been a conventional guy. Color me a skeptic.
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That's easy answer for me: FMJ.
Nobody would like to be stabbed with 9mm dia. phillips screwdriver or steel rod, but everyone laughs at FMJs.
Nobody would like to be stabbed with 9mm dia. phillips screwdriver or steel rod, but everyone laughs at FMJs.
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Sadly it was not a hit to the brain to save us all a lot of money
From another article:
"He turned around and he growled at me. He growled, like, 'Grrr!' He growled at me, and when he growled at me, I attacked him. I grabbed a broom. I started whacking him with a broom," Bracey explained. "We're still tussling. I'm punching, punching, punching him. It's like it's being effective, but at the time we're fighting, I'm screaming 'Get something! Grab something! Get something! Grab something!' and next thing I know, he got shot."
Uh, dude, you were the one doing the shooting, so that shouldn't be a surprise...
"He turned around and he growled at me. He growled, like, 'Grrr!' He growled at me, and when he growled at me, I attacked him. I grabbed a broom. I started whacking him with a broom," Bracey explained. "We're still tussling. I'm punching, punching, punching him. It's like it's being effective, but at the time we're fighting, I'm screaming 'Get something! Grab something! Get something! Grab something!' and next thing I know, he got shot."
Uh, dude, you were the one doing the shooting, so that shouldn't be a surprise...
Sadly it was not a hit to the brain to save us all a lot of money
Agreed! Also we don't want this fellow ever released upon the world again!!!!
Ah, conflicting statements... not good!!!
Soooo, the guy growled! Sounds like bath salts or an overextended tweaker...
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