Self-defense fact vs fiction article

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by PNWguy, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:14 AM.

  1. PNWguy

    PNWguy
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    Been in a few debates on various gun forums over the years with well-meaning fellow gun-owners regarding things such as adequate CCW capacity, caliber choice, defensive distances, etc.

    Came across an old article by Masaad Ayoob that addresses just about all of those subjects. It was a breath of fresh air.

    I think it is beneficial for all of us to do our own research and discover what the experts have to say about such things rather than rely on our own misconceptions based on gun shop hearsay and internet ramblings...

    Massad Ayoob: Gunfighting Fact vs. Fiction

    Sometimes, what seems like good advice at the time is proven later to be not so great. The record shows that decades ago, when more adult Americans smoked than not, popular magazines carried ads in which physicians endorsed this or that brand of cigarette. Brand A was an excellent aid to digestion after meals, one doctor said. The menthol in Brand B was soothing to a sore throat, another physician opined.

    Today, of course, we know better. Oncologists who’ve treated patients suffering from throat cancer will tell you that those old claims are bunk. They sure sounded authoritative back in the day, though. Some advice on gunfight survival goes back to the same era. And some of it is just as suspect. Let’s look at a few examples.

    Myth #1: A Good Shoot Is A Good Shoot

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-12.jpg

    In the old days, there was some truth to this. When it was reasonably clear that a good guy had shot a bad guy, the criminal justice system ruled it to be a justifiable action, and things were pretty much done with. Oh, there might have been a lawsuit here or there, but it was not common to see a huge wrongful death lawsuit levied on the shooter after a fatal use of force in legitimate defense of oneself or others.

    RELATED STORY: Massad Ayoob – Understanding Stand Your Ground & Castle Doctrine


    Slowly, things changed. The gun control movement gained traction in the 1960s after the assassinations of President Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King and Senator Robert Kennedy. This time, the mainstream media went in the same direction, gathering a huge momentum that remains through today. From the nation’s major TV networks and the influential big city newspapers and national news magazines, to the groves of academe, it became popular to treat guns and the people who owned them as an embarrassing, dangerous manifestation of low-class stupidity. This also applied for ordinary people who picked up a gun in legitimate self-defense. It was as if the journalists’ style guide automatically decreed that the term “vigilante” be applied to those who saved themselves and others from being victimized.

    Today, a good shoot isn’t a “good shoot” until the authorities say so and the last false allegation of a “bad shoot” has been decisively stamped out. It’s a predictable aftermath that must be prepared for, just as the gunfight itself must be prepared for well beforehand.

    Myth #2: Aim For Center-Mass

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-2.jpg
    Here the author is centered on the center of mass. He’s happy with this score from his S&W 686 and went on to win this NRA Police Service Revolver match, but he feels the center rings on this B-27 target should be up in the center portion of the chest.
    This was a poor choice of words even in the old days, and that’s still true. If you think about it, the center of mass on a standing human is somewhere in his abdominal area. A bullet there may or may not prove fatal later, but is not very likely to instantly disable a violent man now, and the latter of course is what we need to ensure the survival of the good guys.


    The way to stop a criminal from shooting at you is to deliver your bullet to a part of the body he needs in order to keep shooting at you, and make that part of his body stop working. I’ve told my students for decades that they should have a copy of Gray’s Anatomy right next to their shooting manuals. Read Dr. Jim Williams’ excellent book Tactical Anatomy, which is available through the website tacticalanatomy.com. An ER physician with extensive experience treating gunshot wounds and intensive firearms training himself, Dr. Williams details the proper points of aim from various angles when the object of shooting is to render a homicidal criminal incapable of carrying out his murderous actions.

    Myth #3: He Who Shoots First Wins

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-4.jpg
    In a gunfight, the person who shoots first doesn’t always win. One historic example to prove this point is the famous shootout between Wild Bill Hickok and Dave Tutt. Tutt panicked and opened fire on Hickok when they were some 70 yards apart, but his bullets missed. Hickok stayed calm, aimed carefully and ended the fight by putting a .36-caliber round through Tutt’s heart, dropping him instantly. And while it only took one shot for Hickok, he had plenty of extra ammo on hand.
    This is untrue on multiple levels. Gunfights are not won by the guy who makes the first loud noise. They’re not even won by the first guy who gets a hit. In Springfield, Missouri, in the 19th century, Wild Bill Hickok met Dave Tutt in the town square, in what may have been the only time in the Old West that two men actually did have a “walk and draw” contest in the middle of the street. Tutt panicked and opened fire on Hickok when they were some 70 yards apart. His bullets missed. Hickok coolly stood his ground, aimed carefully and ended the fight by putting a .36-caliber round through his antagonist’s heart.

    RELATED STORY: 10 Cases Where An Armed Citizen Took Down An Active Shooter


    In the more famous gunfight at OK Corral, Wyatt Earp’s brother, Morgan, was shot down by a bullet that went across his shoulders and chipped one of his vertebrae, and Doc Holliday received a glancing wound to the hip from Frank McLaury’s Colt .44. A moment later, McLaury fell dead, killed instantly when Holliday shot him in the chest and the wounded Morgan Earp almost simultaneously shot him in the head.

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-3.jpg
    Hero cop Stacy Lim killed her attacker with four Remington JHPs from her 9mm Beretta, after a .357 Mag bullet hit her heart. She recovered and returned to work.
    Even severe wounds may not seriously disable a committed combatant. I have had the privilege of meeting many hero cops who have survived hellacious gunfight injuries and gone on to prevail. One is Stacy Lim of the LAPD. She was shot in the heart with a .357 Mag revolver at the opening of her encounter. She returned fire with her Beretta 9mm, killing her antagonist with four solid hits out of the four she fired. She recovered to return to full duty, and today is one of the nation’s most respected police firearms instructors. Another is Officer Jared Reston of Jacksonville, Florida. He was shot in the face at point-blank range by a gunman armed with a .45 ACP who then fired six more bullets into Reston when he fell. Jared returned fire from the ground with his Glock .40. He killed the assailant and recovered to return to patrol and SWAT duty.

    These were the good guys and gals. But the bad guys can be just as resilient, and we would all do well to remember that it took Stacy four dead-on hits to drop her opponent, and Jared had to shoot his would-be murderer seven times before the guy stopped trying to kill him.

    Myth #4: If You Can’t Do It With…


    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-8.jpg

    “If you can’t do it with six (or five), you can’t do it at all.” There are a whole lot of people who wouldn’t have survived high-volume firefights if they only had five or six cartridges at the time. Let’s look at some of the shootouts we’ve already discussed. Hickok did indeed kill Tutt with a single shot—but he had a second Colt in his waistband to back up the first if more shots had been required. When Holliday shot Tom McLaury at the end of the OK Corral shootout in Tombstone, Arizona, it was his third gun of the fight. Holliday had already emptied a double-barrel shotgun (killing Frank McLaury’s brother Tom), and a Colt SAA before drawing his backup Colt Lightning revolver to shoot Frank. Fast-forward to modern times: Officer Jared Reston, severely wounded, had to unleash most of the rounds in his 16-shot Glock 22 to finish his deadly fight in Jacksonville.

    It happens to armed citizens, too. I’ve lost count of the shootings I’ve reviewed over the years where the good guys ran out of ammunition. Rich Davis fired all of the six shots he had and hit all three of the armed robbers he faced while delivering pizzas, but one of them was still up and running and able to shoot and wound him twice. That night in the emergency room, it occurred to him that there had to be something better than one’s own body to stop bullets with, and he was inspired to invent the soft body armor that has since saved thousands of lives.

    RELATED STORY: Clear & Present – 3 Must-Know Malfunction-Clearance Drills


    I spoke at two trials, one criminal and one civil, for an attorney who had to shoot a man who pulled a gun on him in his law office. His nine-shot 9mm was at slide-lock, having delivered nine solid hits, before his opponent slumped and died. He survived both the gunfight and the trials, but it had been terribly close because he had no more ammunition at all when the gun duel ended.

    There are other reasons to carry spare ammunition. With a semi-automatic pistol, as many firearms instructors will tell you, a cardinal cause of malfunctions is a magazine problem. Often, this can only be rectified by ripping the bad magazine out of the gun and replacing it with a fresh one. This naturally requires a fresh magazine to be right there on your person.

    Myth #5: Your Choice of Gun & Ammo Doesn’t Matter

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-7.jpg
    Should you carry jacketed hollow point (JHP) or full metal jacket (FMJ) ammo for defensive use? Experts have long since decided in favor of the former.
    There aren’t a whole lot of gunfight survivors who will agree on that premise. A lifetime of studying these incidents has taught me that the choice of equipment is about fourth down on the list of priorities for survival. It is preceded by mindset, tactics and skill at arms. We all agree that a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44 Mag, and so on.


    That said, though, you will be better served with a weapon you can shoot well at high speed, and with ammunition that hits hard on the receiving end. I’m not sure who first said, “No gunfight survivor has ever said that he wished he had less powerful ammunition or fewer shots available,” but that sage pretty much nailed it.

    You definitely want hollow-point loads designed to expand in diameter and penetrate to optimum depths. Some people like to kid themselves that they’re saving money by buying non-expanding “ball” ammunition at cheap, generic prices. You’re only saving money if you’re getting adequate performance for less cost. I’m not aware of a single major police department in the United States still using ball ammunition in their duty handguns, even though they would certainly be motivated to cut costs anywhere they could in these depressed economic times. We are seeing police departments laying off cops, and even small towns disbanding their police departments, because of budget crunches. Why are they still paying premium prices for hollow-point ammunition? Because a very long history of gunfights has shown that it works more effectively to stop armed criminals more quickly.

    RELATED STORY: Revolver Vs. Auto – Which Model Fits Your Concealed Carry Needs?

    Hollow points are also safer for innocent bystanders, whether cops, security professionals or armed citizens fire them. The hollow-nosed bullet’s expansion slows it down and usually leaves it lodged in the opposite side of the opponent’s body and clothing, or lying on the ground a few feet behind him, spent. A 9mm or .45 FMJ round can go through two bystanders and into a third deep enough to leave three innocents lying dead on the ground. Before you ignore that, go to findlaw.com and look up the definition of “deliberate indifference.” Even a soulless sociopath would realize that this could sustain a criminal charge of manslaughter, and a civil suit for wrongful death or injury, and any good person with a three-digit IQ would realize that their own loved ones are the most likely “bystanders” to be present in a home-defense shooting.


    It’s become popular on the Internet to claim that there is no difference between chamberings. That the 9mm, for instance, is equal to the .40 S&W or .45 ACP, bullet type for bullet type, in terms of “stopping power.” That is an argument that simply defies logic. A 9mm-diameter bullet weighing 147 grains is the same as a 10mm-diameter .40 bullet weighing 180 grains, or an 11.25mm-diameter .45 ACP +P bullet weighing 230 grains, when they’re all going within 50 feet per second of each other? Really? History, common sense and logic say otherwise.

    The 9mm-diameter bullets, well designed and loaded to higher velocities, can certainly give the larger calibers a run for their money. The best 9mm and .357 Mag or .357 SIG loads may well outperform lower-tech .45 ACP and .45 Colt loads in terms of relevant wound volume. The issue is more complicated than it sounds, but the bottom line is that there are more effective and less effective cartridges for defense use, and they’re not all created equal.

    RELATED STORY: 12 Autopistols From the COMPLETE BOOK OF HANDGUNS 2016 Buyer’s Guide

    If you have to fight for your life with a firearm, I absolutely agree with Mark Moritz that “the first rule of gunfighting is, have a gun.” I’d rather you have a .380—or for that matter, a .22—than no gun at all. I realize that my dress code and my occupation may allow me to carry larger hardware than you. At the same time, convenience and economy must be balanced with the fact that you already decided you needed to be armed, and you need to have a firearm adequate to the task if you are in fact involved in a gunfight.


    There are certainly good reasons to use a 9mm instead of a .45. If the shooter is distinctly better at hitting with speed with a 9mm, or feels a need for more smaller bullets rather than fewer larger ones in the same sized gun, we’re looking at good reasons to choose the 9mm. When I travel to other countries, I usually carry a 9mm simply because the ammunition is much more readily available there than the .40, .45, .357 SIG, etc. But if you’re going to choose a smaller-caliber gun, choose it for real reasons, not delusional ones that do not pass the tests of history, logic and common sense.

    Common Sense

    Massad-Ayoob-Gunfighting-Fact-vs.-Fiction-6.jpg
    Crime prevention programs like Neighborhood Watch are part and parcel of a complete home-defense plan to protect your family.
    Personal and home defense aren’t just about the gun. The gun is simply one component of a much larger whole. Home security encompasses locks, alarms and hardened perimeters. Your family needs to have a plan for emergencies, whether that emergency is a house fire or a home invasion. Communications and emergency illumination are part of the package. A Neighborhood Watch program can be priceless.

    The world of the defensive firearm is rife with myths, and only some of them have been dealt with here. Anyone who keeps a firearm for home defense, or lawfully carries one in public, needs to apply his or her own common sense. We are, after all, literally talking about life and death when we assess these matters.
     
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  2. Boboclown

    Boboclown
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    You mean I shouldn't carry around a .50 BMG with armor piercing ammo?
     
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  3. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson
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    Myth #3..He who shoots first wins...
    Hickok actually used a Colt Dragoon in that fight...which is .44 caliber ( .454 )...and did not use a Colt "Navy"
    .36 caliber ( .375 ) or have another revolver in his belt , in that fight...
    He did indeed use the Colt Navy often , just not in that fight.

    Well so what...
    The "so what" is , that if one part of the article is not true , then what about the other parts...?
    It may cause someone to doubt what the rest of the article states.

    With that said..
    The main and really important part of the "myth" , it don't matter if you shoot first or not , buy you gotta hit what you shoot at , holds true.
    Andy
    Please note that I am not doubting or knocking what Massad Ayoob has himself written or experienced...just am taking issue with the use of an historic example that has details that have been proven to be wrong
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 12:12 PM
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  4. dcfranzen

    dcfranzen
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    Thanks, PNWguy, for taking the time to put together a nice reading thread.
     
  5. CountryGent

    CountryGent
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    Well said. Or as Wyatt Earp put it, "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." :)
     
  6. bbbass

    bbbass
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    After reviewing literally thousands of gunfights, "The first to put hits on the other's body usually wins". - John Correia

    Ayoob is a myth, wrapped in a puzzle, inside an enigma. o_O;)
     
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  7. No_Regerts

    No_Regerts
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    Sounds like you just watched Inception.
     
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  8. thorborg

    thorborg
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    I've read his stuff. Heck, I'm a voracious reader so read a lot of stuff. I have a six foot high pile of salt in my back yard just for that occasion. After a while you tend to see similarities from those who have experienced topics first hand, and become suspect about others who just write about them. While not criticizing any particular person or author I offer this:
    One would be hard put to belittle, deny or otherwise denigrate gunfight descriptions which are still applicable in my mind and are found in the writings of Bill Jordan in his book "no second place winners" While not the most politically correct for this day and age, he really does sum up in detail a gunfight. I recommend this book to help separate truth from fiction.
     
  9. Joe13

    Joe13
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    I don't really see an argument worth fighting....

    What works in one situation might not work for another, you can what if all day.

    Some is better then none but I'm not going to forgo my in pocket summer P22 for my G17 because if I get into a gun fight I'd rather have 18 rounds of 9mm over 10 rounds of .22lr (extra mag omitted for simplicity).


    Ultimately I don't put myself in situations needing an AR out on the street - but I'll have one in the car if I decide too;).
     
  10. bbbass

    bbbass
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    Nah, I tried to watch that movie years ago and couldn't do it... didn't need to be inside someones bad LSD trip! I struggle with perception of reality just fine all by myself w/o the outside help. :)

    I'm more along the lines of Predator... easy to understand action and villains. About the farthest I go is the Prometheus prequels (to the movie "Alien") and I still had to have those explained after watching several times. :confused:

    Ah, it was Churchill: A form of Winston Churchill's quotation, made in a radio broadcast in October 1939: "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." Churchill knew a thing or two about Russian collusion.
     
  11. bbbass

    bbbass
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    The truth about gunfights... IMO there is no truth about gunfights. I value the man's experience and he seems to have honestly held opinions. But, it's all so variable and one must do what works for one's self.

    Myth: What I carry for EDC is the best there is!

    Reality, I carry a compromise. I carry a handgun because I don't have a tax stamp for an M16, and yes Bobo .50 Barrett is hard to conceal! ;) I carry a 9mm because my hands will no longer tolerate what I consider to be an adequate amount of practice/training with my double stack .45ACP. I carry a 10rd mag in a slim profile Ruger SR9c for good concealment aspects (it's a slim double stack, so I installed a Hogue wrap because my hands like big grips). I carry 2 17rd mags on the offside because it's better to have them and not need them than vice versa.

    The Average Joe gunfight is said to be 0 to 8 rds. Personally, I think this number is increasing, and not just due to poor or amateurish/panicked shooting. Leaving LEO actions out, the trend does seem to be towards multiple attackers, hardened bangers, and crazed or drugged individuals.

    Am I geared up for a statistical outlier? Of course! IMO "Most" robbers would be dissuaded by getting hit or even shot at. I think "many" simple attacks would be put off by shots on target. And many angry jerks are put off by the mere sight of a firearm. But I'm not willing to bet my life on it (what if my wife's lover seriously intends to murder me?), and carry extra ammo for the same reason that I carry concealed in the first place... just in case. I don't want my gravestone to read "Here lies bbbass, killed by an outlier".
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019 at 1:36 PM
  12. bbbass

    bbbass
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    Yes. The rules of stupid (adapted) say, "Don't go stupid places, at stupid times, with stupid people, doing stupid things". A bit of prudence can help us stay safe.

    Another person says it in another way:

    Self-Defense Tip: Avoid Stupid People in Stupid Places Doing Stupid Things [Video NSFW]
    by Robert Farago |Feb 14, 2016 |

    This liveleak.com video shows an irate customer at the last neighborhood store Michael Brown ever visited. The thing to notice: all the people standing around, either waiting for something to happen or doing their shopping. They’re violating the first rule of self-defense, armed or otherwise: avoid stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things. The best way to avoid this unholy trinity: don’t go to stupid places in the first place. By the same token . . .


    a perfectly reasonable place can turn into a stupid place to be if a stupid person suddenly starts doing something stupid.


    In that case, your are advised to GTFO. Leave. Immediately. If you’re in a store, put down your shopping and exit ASAP. If you’re in a restaurant or bar, get up and go. Don’t pay. Just go. (You will, of course, return to settle your bill.)


    Another handy hint: have a “GTFO” word you can use with your family. A codeword that tells your friends, family or other folks that it’s time to scarper (as the Brits would say) without discussion, deviation or hesitation.


    Yes, you want to up you situational awareness when things start getting seriously awkward, and start thinking about armed defense (e.g., cover, concealment, egress). But it can’t be said enough: the only gunfight you’re guaranteed to win is one you don’t have.


    There are “sheepdogs” amongst us that will stay in a dangerous situation to protect innocent life. I applaud them. But remember that the people being threatened also have a natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. They shouldn’t rely on you any more than you should rely on them. Just sayin’ . . .


    Addendum: Several TTAG commentators has posited that this kind of “showboating” is SOP in many urban areas, often used to provide cover for shoplifters. I stand by my assertion. If there’s someone verbally violent in a location, it’s best to leave. Better safe than sorry. If that makes me a wimp, so be it. I have other priorities.
     
  13. Howard1955

    Howard1955
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    I hope I never have to shoot anyone - but if I do, then I want the hardest-hitting thumper I can shoot accurately.


    Hollow points for town, so I don’t accidentally shoot someone behind (through) the bad guy, and ball ammo for home defense. It’s just my wife and me here, so if I start shooting at a home invader and the rounds happen to go through him and into the jerk behind him, so much the better.


    Generally speaking, 12 gauge shotgun or .308 rifle for long guns, .357 magnum or 45acp for handguns. Whatever part of the bad guy is visible is a target, but brains and balls have bullseyes on them. If I can only see the bad guy’s foot, I plan to shoot him in the center of his foot. Etc.


    I’m not a soldier, or a cop. Never have been, and don’t intend to start training to be one now.
     
  14. PNWguy

    PNWguy
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    Why ball ammo?

    From the article in the OP...

     
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  15. Howard1955

    Howard1955
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    Hollow points are more likely to dump all their energy into a bad guy without going all the way through, and possibly hitting an innocent bystander. So I carry hp’s.

    For home defense, I don’t care if it over-penetrates. If I ever have to, I plan to make the bad guys bleed from as many holes as possible. 45 ball ammo, if it doesn’t stop/kill them outright, will probably put a hole clean through them, and they can leak from the front and the back.

    But a head, heart, or groin shot is likely to end the fight. Especially with a .45acp.
     
  16. PNWguy

    PNWguy
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    Respectfully speaking, your plan should be to stop the threat as quickly as possible, which science, the experts, the evidence, and common sense clearly shows is done with hollowpoints.

    I really don't understand your reasons for using less effective bullets for attackers in your home.
     
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  17. Howard1955

    Howard1955
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    Copy that.
     
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  18. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson
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    Just to something consider :

    Sgt. Alvin York killed six charging German soldiers with his 1911 and FMJ Ball ammo...

    Not saying that this example makes it plain , that we should all use FMJ ammo , all the time , just saying that it does work.
    Andy
     
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  19. Alexx1401

    Alexx1401
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    I use ball in my mouse guns, .32 &.380, because I am leery of the HP's doing the job. It's all a trade off and everyone has to decide what they will do. After years of watching some of these dopers take multiple hits from an LEO's service weapon the .32 and .380 seem quite small now. So if I have to depend on one I want to at least make sure the round makes it well into the dobad. Of course biggest hope is I never have to use any of my carry guns but, if I do hopefully I have the larger caliber one with me.
    As for the book I read Mass decades back and Jordan. Great info and of course always good to prepare. Thing to remember is it almost never goes the way of training. We have to re certify for hands on training every couple years using a couple different training programs. It's interesting and fun. I always tell the new people in the class this is great but, when it comes time to actually go hands on with people it never goes this way. The training is to help make sure when it's over no one is hurt if possible but the fights are always all different. Gun fights are a WHOLE different game all together. Training is great but it will almost never happen the way the class tells you. Does NOT mean its not a great idea to train though.
     
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  20. bbbass

    bbbass
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    Sorry in advance... I have a lot of opinions!!!

    Yes, studies show that the more holes the quicker the bleed out. I think that probably works for LEOs or maybe even for a prolonged self defense engagement on the street or in a store. But at home I want my shot(s) to be immediately disabling. The problem is that handguns are notoriously ineffective at immediately disabling. Better have a plan to dump enough rounds into the target to put it down.

    At home, in near dark, can we see well enough to do a head shot? And even with a light, is there enough time to do a head shot? (Having done just a wee bit of training, I know it takes longer to concentrate the sights for a head shot, and that's on stationary targets... I imagine the home invader is not gonna just stand there!)

    I know for myself, that when an intruder appears in my darkened bedroom doorway or in the weapon light inside my house, I have very little time to make the shot(s). Do we have time to do a heart shot, or is aiming for the center of the sternum the way to go? (IDPA targets have a circle that represents the center of the sternum, thus avoiding training people to shoot at the center of the trunk area.) IMO, most self defenders need to be trained to shoot for the greatest chance of success while engaged in a highly stressful activity. YMMV

    What's the deal with groin shots? Yes the femoral arteries are there... yes, a penetrating shot to the hip ball with a heavy slug can break the hip joint, putting the BG down on the ground... maybe a good thing in a knife attack, but in a gunfight you've now left the hands free to keep shooting at you. And a miss to the center of that area will cause relatively little damage. IMO this is an old gunfighter tactic, or LEO tactic. I don't get it. I have enough things to worry about w/o thinking about where to aim.

    Lastly, we need to make sure that defenders are not thinking about "one shot stops". The odds of that happening are statistically rare. Too many people are taking one or two shots and then lowering the gun to check for effectiveness... good training indicates shooting until the BG is down and not aiming a gun at you.

    Just my $0.02 FWIW...
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 12:23 PM
    Alexx1401 and Howard1955 like this.

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