Seattle restaurant incident: What would YOU do?

[Dave Workman]

Seattle restaurant incident heightens focus on CCW, self-defense

A bizarre incident at a Seattle restaurant Saturday afternoon involving a man "believed to be high" on drugs set off an interesting discussion among Seattle Times readers, some of whom seem disappointed nobody in the Ballard establishment drew a gun and stopped things cold.


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[The Nothing]

Getting out of the situation is preferred to having to respond with violence. Get my family out. Get others out. If exit is not an option, then lead with lead the way.

 

[x2ndxall]

Wow. There are soo many available self defense items in a restaurant (equal+ to a piece of glass). If nothing else, one of the guys could have busted a chair over this loser's head. A guy with a big unwieldy piece of glass? Seriously? Not real scary. I'd feel much safer with a chair in my hands than a piece of glass.

I wouldn't have shot him, unless I was just in a bad mood.

Most folks nowadays would much rather run than attempt to stop a threat. It's part of the pussification of America.

 

[Oregon13]

"The Windy City has reported more than 170 homicides so far this year, and even though they didn't all involve firearms, that didn't make the victims less dead."

Uh...what?

 

[x2ndxall]

Getting out of the situation is preferred to having to respond with violence. Get my family out. Get others out. If exit is not an option, then lead with lead the way.

I wasn't picking on you, per se. I think we were replying at the same time.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

My wife and I are leaving! However, I'm facing him all the way out! If he attacks us, he's room temperature!
If he gets hold of someone and it looks bad for that person then, well, I'll have a terrible decision to make!

 

[erudne]

Rule #1
Stay out of Cities

 

[The Nothing]

I wasn't picking on you, per se. I think we were replying at the same time.

We were, and I didn't take it that way.

 

[etrain16]

Just another attempt by the anti-gun media to show how 'ineffective' concealed carry is, thus giving more reason to get rid of it altogether. I have a few things to say about that, some questions, some comments:

1. Was anyone in the restaurant carrying in the first place? Has this even been confirmed?
2. If anyone was carrying were THEIR lives in immediate danger?
3. What makes people think that a person who is carrying is responsible for engaging any and all threats? I carry to protect myself and my family FIRST. IF I choose to engage to protect someone else, that will be a call I make at that time, but only if I've secured my family first. Retreat is always the first option. The gun is the last resort and only when all other options have been exhausted.
4. Where the hell were the police? Why aren't they asking that question? Aren't we supposed to be able to rely on the police to be there, everywhere, every minute of the damn day to keep us safe so we don't need to carry guns in the first place?!
5. Who is going to reimburse me on the ammo tax I had to pay for my carry weapon? If I use my gun to protect taxpayers, shouldn't I be subsequently reimbursed for the cost of my ammo and ammo taxes??
6. Why should it be my responsibility to use my gun to protect anyone other than myself or my family? A CC license does not deputize you, it merely allows you to carry a gun concealed. What right do any of these folks have to expect a private citizen to intervene?
7. If drugs were part of the problem that led to this incident, why hasn't more been done to keep people like this off the street to begin with?

And here's the big kicker:

8. What part did the State of Washington and the City of Seattle/King County play in making it so difficult for people to lawfully carry their guns in places like this? What part did the voters of Washington/Seattle/King County play in making lawful carry so fricking difficult as to make many folks not want to even try???? What part do they play in driving out all the gun and ammo stores in those areas so people have no resources to buy them in the first place, Huh?? What part do businesses play that forbid lawful carry in their places of business? Where are your answers to those questions?!

So much anti-gun bullsh!t. We need to speak back to challenges like this, in a vigorous and loud way. If you don't take your own personal safety seriously enough to get armed and be prepared, then when bad things happen, you only have YOURSELF to blame. Bunch of weak-minded wuss-a$$ government-loving losers. Your government failed to protect you from a real threat. If you want to get angry, get angry at them. Leave the rest of us alone.

 

[x2ndxall]

Protecting your own family should definitely always be first. No question.

But, I gotta say I'm confused by those who could leave others to fend for themselves. Totally blows me away. I can't for the life of me comprehend how a man could run and leave innocents alone with a threat and still call themselves a man. THAT would be MY definition of a wussy.
Regardless of how they vote or feel about armed citizens, I couldn't do it.

 

[etrain16]

Protecting your own family should definitely always be first. No question.

But, I gotta say I'm confused by those who could leave others to fend for themselves. Totally blows me away. I can't for the life of me comprehend how a man could run and leave innocents alone with a threat and still call themselves a man. THAT would be MY definition of a wussy.
Regardless of how they vote or feel about armed citizens, I couldn't do it.

Consider it from a slightly different point of view.

To answer that question, I was confronted directly with that type of scenario myself during a recent defensive handgun class I took. Without going into specifics about a very realistic scenario they put us through (we're asked not to share those specifics so others can have the chance to experience it in class themselves), I can tell you that day made me seriously rethink getting involved in anything that doesn't directly affect the protection of myself or my family.

The real question is not whether you're a wuss, but whether or not you're willing to put your life on the line for someone you don't know? Remembering that if something happens to you, your family is potentially left without you there to support/care for them. Remembering that getting involved may cost you jail time or at the least expensive lawyers, the potential loss of your job, etc. And your family suffers the whole time. While I agree, having grown up with the belief that you help others, my thinking has been adjusted a bit to focus on my primary responsibility - my family - and that includes making sure I come home each night to care for them. I don't see that as a wuss answer at all, but a responsible answer.

Now, does that mean I would never get involved? I can't say it does. I've stepped in to several fights in my past, and to date, nothing bad came of it for me. My actions, should something like what happened in that restaurant happen to me, will be dictated by the circumstances and my choices at that time, I can simply say that I have yet another level of consideration that I didn't previously include in my planning for such events. And that new information will help to inform any future decisions I make about getting involved.

Some other things to consider - what if you choose to get involved and in the melee, you accidentally shoot an innocent bystander? What if that was a child? Could you live with yourself then? All I'm saying is that there is more to choosing to get involved beyond just whether or not you're a 'man'. There are potential consequences that must be considered in any case like this.

 

[x2ndxall]

Consider it from a slightly different point of view.

To answer that question, I was confronted directly with that very question myself during a recent defensive handgun class I took. Without going into specifics about a very realistic scenario they put us through (we're asked not to share those specifics so others can have the chance to experience it in class themselves), I can tell you that day made me seriously rethink getting involved in anything that doesn't directly affect the protection of myself or my family.

The real question is not whether you're a wuss, but whether or not you're willing to put your life on the line for someone you don't know? Remembering that if something happens to you, your family is potentially left without you there to support/care for them. Remembering that getting involved may cost you jail time or at the least expensive lawyers, the potential loss of your job, etc. And your family suffers the whole time. While I agree, having grown up with the belief that you help others, my thinking has been adjusted a bit to focus on my primary responsibility - my family - and that includes making sure I come home each night to care for them. I don't see that as a wuss answer at all, but a responsible answer.

Now, does that mean I would never get involved? I can't say it does. I've stepped in to several fights in my past, and to date, nothing bad came of it for me. My actions, should something like what happened in that restaurant happen to me, will be dictated by the circumstances and my choices at that time, I can simply say that I have yet another level of consideration that I didn't previously include in my planning for such events. And that new information will help to inform any future decisions I make about getting involved.

Some other things to consider - what if you choose to get involved and in the melee, you accidentally shoot an innocent bystander? What if that was a child? Could you live with yourself then? All I'm saying is that there is more to choosing to get involved beyond just whether or not you're a 'man'. There are potential consequences that must be considered in any case like this.

I get what you're saying and agree with most of this post.
Three things though:
1) This thread was about a particular incident. I feel in this particular incident most of your points are moot.
2) I said wouldn't have shot him, therefore I couldn't have missed and hit an innocent.
3) It's 0215 here and I'm tired and dirty. Maybe I'll reply in a more legible/understandable manner when I've had some rest.

 

[etrain16]

I get what you're saying and agree with most of this post.
Three things though:
1) This thread was about a particular incident. I feel in this particular incident most of your points are moot.
2) I said wouldn't have shot him, therefore I couldn't have missed and hit an innocent.
3) It's 0215 here and I'm tired and dirty. Maybe I'll reply in a more legible/understandable manner when I've had some rest.

Yeah, my response was more generic, not really targeted at this specific event. But like I said, I am the type to get involved, but I now have yet one more piece of training in my mind that helps to inform my decision about when to get involved.

Tired and dirty means working hard, been there many times myself. Nothing feels better than going home and chilling out a bit after a long day. Of course, now I'm a desk jockey, so I usually only get tired and dirty working around the house.

 

[Ura-Ki]

SHAME SHAME SHAME on all those who question whether or not there was a CC person in that situation and if there was, SHAME ON THEM for laying the blame for inaction at the feet of a CC permit holder for doing what was best for them selves and there loved ones FIRST! Times are a changing, and not for the better. I'm with etrain16 on this one, who the hell made it my responsibility to commit my self to a course of action(s) that will probably not end well for me, or the dirtbag druggy! Just because he decided to get cranked up on something and go and cause trouble! I also agree that there are plenty of things inside a restaurant that I could use to defend my self and get my loved ones to safety with out me having to even expose the fact that I am carrying. Once you commit to action that likely results in drawing your side arm, you open your self up to all sorts of things, and many are not good! Suppose you do draw, and bad guy decides it's not going to end well and leaves, what happens then, do I get in trouble because I did what I needed to keep my self safe? Or worse you do end up shooting and killing the bad guy and now you have all that comes with that come crashing down on your head! Can you handle a wrongful death law suit even if you are cleared of any and all charges? Society has changed its perception of who is responsible to do any thing when trouble finds them. People refuse to accept the mantle of responsibility for them selves and loved ones to do any thing to protect them selves and yet, they cry foul when some one else chooses whats best for them selves first, and then may or may not act for the good of others! Again, WHO THE HELL do these idiots think they are to put any blame at the feet of someone they do not know, know any thing about and who may or may not be a CC permit holder! Who the hell do these people think they are that they think I should put every thing I have and every thing I am at risk, FOR THEM!!!!! SHAME ON THEM ALL!!!!

 

[albin25]

just my 2 cents,
I tend to look upon a self defense situation in a public area like a restaurant, in much the same way as being on a commercial flight that may experience rapid decompression that triggers the oxygen masks to drop...(but with exits)
1) Get yourself squared away (whether putting on the oxygen mask or readying* your weapon)...then make sure your wife and kids are together and agree on an exit**.
3) If your wife also carries confirm her weapon then have her evacuate at the ready with the kids first.
4) Immediately follow them, covering their exit from a second angle until safe.
5) Only after you and yours are out of danger should you review the situation and consider if assisting un-armed, un-prepared strangers is warranted. Keep in mind that you may loose the "self" in self defense if you re-enter a dangerous situation.

* ready doesn't have to mean "draw"

**there are usually several exits in any public space, be in the habit of noting them all. Most people will head for the exit they came in (front door)... avoid that one if at all possible.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Some thing else to consider here that I don't think many are aware of. IF you were to find your self in a situation that left you with no choice but to draw and fire your weapon, YOU are responsible for each and every single round that exits that gun!!! Many choose to carry what would be considered to be less then the minimum required (.25 auto, 32 auto, 380 auto, 9 mm) for a quick and lethal end, and that means you have to fire several more rounds to stop a threat! Now add in this situation where you have a perp loaded on drugs and his body will not react as much to a hit, let alone several, and now you have an even bigger problem! Suppose you do fire several rounds, statistics show that the odds are that you will only hit one to three times! Where did the other rounds go? Through the window and up the street? Did any of those rounds strike some one? See , the non gun people never have to think about these things, and I do not know if any of the training people are getting addresses these liabilities. I sure would hope so! Again, to act in the best interest of ones self First is the only thing one should consider! If like me you are the kind of person that runs toward danger, then you have to be ready to act and prepared for the consequences that come with action!

 

[bbbass]

One quick aside... a policeman last year emptied two mags of .45ACP rounds, all he had, at a large drugged up BG scoring many hits. After the action, he switched his service weapon to a 9mm so he could carry more ammo. In how many places are the LEOs allowed to carry hollow points? I've seen a 2x4 stop a plated round of .45ACP round nose with barely any deformation. IMO, the problem with smaller calibers is not so much the diameter and weight, but that many folks use FMJ target ammo. Anyone remember the case of the George Wallace attempted assassination? With modern ammo, that woulda been one dead dude!

Anyway, I agree with taking care of family first. After that, I have a decision to make. In most cases if I had the means and skills to help, I probably would. I'm just stupid that way, dang the torpedoes! I wish I was a younger guy that had more mixed martial arts training. So many situations where gunplay is not required. One is still responsible if something goes wrong tho.

 

[Mal Cap]

Soon they'll be a National Criminals Have Rights Day. Just like Earth Day, but with a more fertilizer.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Soon they'll be a National Criminals Have Rights Day. Just like Earth Day, but with a more fertilizer.

Yea, I can see that! Imagine all the "City Kampers" In our parks and other public places raisin hell and terrorizing every one!!!

 

[rick benjamin]

Posts 2, 6, 15

A chair to pin him down
couple guys charge him with a table.

Think like the A TEAM!
I mean, think like Murdock...