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A provocative topic title, yes? Well it got you here! ;)

First and foremost, I feel we need to do whatever we can to prevent the radical left from using every mass shooting as political ammunition to further their agenda of disarming the population, or banning certain specific tools they deem "evil".

And as for the latest target of the media (AR-15s), you know the statistics: Rifles as a whole are the least abused firearms in America. According to the FBI all rifles combined (that's everything from a .22 lever action, to grandpa's hunting rifle, to AR-15s) account for less than 2% of all homicides and less than 3% of all firearms related homicides. (Expanded Homicide Data Table 8)

Why, then, are firearms like the AR-15 always the target of left-wing political gun control proposals? That is a serious question. In my eyes it's because it was a weapon used the last few publicized mass shootings, and mainstream media likes to increase hype and vilify devices, but this topic probably warrants its own separate discussion.

Now it is absolutely true that the violent tragedies you hear about on the news are something that deeply affects all of us. It hits every one of us very emotionally, regardless of being liberal or conservative, or left or right.

There are those on the anti-gun side that try to leverage the latest school shooting for furthering their gun control agenda, but for most Americans that aren't part of a political agenda machine, I assert the following is true:

* For those that lean left, there's a tendency to feel the government should do something to help prevent these types of tragedies, and it is easy for them to get duped by a liberal gun control argument. It satisfies their need to *feel* like they've "done something", and they miss out on any sort of productive dialog with the opposite side about what we REALLY should be doing about anything.

* For those that lean right, there's a tendency to immediately react to media reports with a "Keep your hands out off my guns!" attitude, get very defensive about our Constitutionally protected rights, and miss out on any sort of productive dialog with the opposite side about what we REALLY should be doing about anything.

We're stuck in the situation where there not only isn't a way to agree on anything, there doesn't even seem to be a way to discuss anything.

It is very common for most of us to make this argument: "Murders happen! A crazy madman will find tools to accomplish their evil goals, and the fact that a gun was an obtainable tool means it is often going to be used for their purposes. If not a gun, then a machete, a bomb, or a delivery truck."

The problem is, when you make that argument, the point of it is to stifle the progression of gun control measures, and it doesn't actually further the discussion around how to make society any safer. @Blackpowdrkeg said it in another thread regarding "why does anybody need an AR-15?": if your goal is to convince the gun-control advocates to change their minds, you will have to address THEIR concerns rather than your own. That sentiment rings true here as well.

People want to feel safe. For us gun owners, feeling safe has a lot to do with taking responsibility for our own safety. For non-gun owners, feeling safe for them seems to be a lot more complex; they find themselves having feelings like, "Well the police will protect me!", and "If people didn't have these semi-automatic weapons to begin with, they wouldn't be able to harm me!" (which is where the "Why does anyone *need* and AR-15?" question comes from), and "I don't want to have to worry about being a victim of gun violence!". That "gun violence" term has always puzzled me. I always figured all violence is equally as bad; being shot or stabbed or clubbed to death or run over by a vehicle are no different. Violence is violence! But I digress.

The point of this whole topic:

We need a path forward. If we want to curtail the constant threat of bans on specific devices or outright attacks on our Constitutionally protected rights, we better come up with a way to have a discussion about how to make public places like schools safer. Because none of us wants to hear that next news report about a school shooting. We need to brainstorm. We need to find common ground that can find support from the left and the right. No, we're not going to get support from the anti-gun coalition that are hell bent on disarming the population. But we just may be able to get support from those that are actually LOOKING for ways to increase security and safety of places like schools. Why can't we actually brainstorm, together, on ways to do this?

This is where the brainstorming starts:

* ELIMINATE GUN FREE ZONES - Gun free zones are dangerous, reckless and negligent. By saying you can't bring in a gun, all they do is make a defenseless victim zone, where criminals do what they want, and you law abiding honest decent people with a gun are banned. Mentally unstable law-breaking people who get their hands on a firearm and intend to do harm at a school obviously do *not* pay attention to a gun free zone policy. A school that is a gun free zone currently just prevents teachers, staff, and other law abiding citizens in a school zone from having a firearm themselves, and thus reduces their ability to properly intervene when a tragedy is unfolding before their very eyes. Gun free zones serve to lessen the security instead of increase it. Gun free zones are an example of Security Theater.

Now, am I advocating that we arm every teacher and require them to defend the kids in their classroom with their own firearm? No. There are teachers who have never touched a gun, would never want to touch a gun, and would never be comfortable with a gun. I am advocating, however, that the restriction be dropped. Do not make them a criminal because they simply are exercising their right to bear arms and are willing to defend others.

* INSTALL TOP-OF-THE-LINE SCHOOL SECURITY SYSTEMS - It took about $400,000 for the Southwestern High School in Shelbyville, Indiana to install a state of the art security system that actually has active countermeasures against an active shooter. (Read about it here: The 'Safest School in America' Has a $400K Security System) Now I'd take this even a step further. There's actually software out there that can analyze still photographic images (or frames from a captured security camera stream) that can positively identify a firearm on a person. That sort of software should be engineered and integrated into a security system such that the recognition of someone holding a firearm on school property can at least set off an alert. An early warning like this might just give that extra advantage.

* ARMED SECURITY - At the Great Mills High School in Maryland, a School Resource Officer intervened within one minute in an active-shooter situation and stopped a possible massacre from occurring. This didn't get much media coverage, but this is something that should be well understood and explored. There is no denying that having armed personnel on campus made a huge difference.

What other ideas are there?
 
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I'm a taxpayer and I'm for security too. But, it is expensive.

Hell.....when are we building that border wall?

School security......that's down the list for me. OK, Ok, ok.....as a first step for school security. Take this test. Figure out which way would a murder probably go?

Next_School_Shooter.jpg

Armed security and re-designing school perimeters/entry points, metal detectors, etc.... will be very costly. Not that they aren't good suggestions. But for now......I'd like to see a wall. On the Mexican border. Before a wall goes up around a school.

Aloha, Mark
 
Just build schools like prisons. You don't see much happening there. Double fence an area thats 300x300 yards square. Make the fenses 12 feet high with razor wire on top, between, and ten feet outside the outer fence.

Put a tower at every corner and half way between each corner. Man each tower with a guy with a rifle with a decent optic. Have two or three roving patrols that are armed.

Have a secured entry way with a metal scanner and dual sally port. Clear backpacks only. You'd be surprised how many people you can get through in a short amount of time.

The buildings wouldn't have to be hardened like a prison, so it would be infinitely cheaper. Build a back gate sally port for buses and commercial vehicles to enter, get searched, and unload.

You'd have plenty of room for classrooms, dining halls, and several athletic fields.
 
I have been complementing this question as well. When they say "why does anyone want an AR15?", whe have to know what question/english they are actually speaking.

For many of us, it might lead us to citing statistics, or "these are the following features that the ART15 offers over other firearms". As if we were comparing the features of two different cars, like a Honda Pilot SUV and a Ford Bronco, at the car lot.

But what they are really asking is "why would someone want to buy a Ford Bronco, like what OJ SImpson tried to escape in after brutally murdering his wife/boyfriend? Who would want to be reminded of those murders by driving a Bronco? And can those Bronco's be used to come after me?"

Yes, I get it doesn't make sense. Yes, I get "2nd amendment rules!". But I also get that these people also vote, and can also contact their representatives or file petitions. And they can be driven to vote against common sense by having a constant stream of fear, imagination, and a health dose of snake-oil instant-cures from the gun control lobby side.
 
Just build schools like prisons. You don't see much happening there. Double fence an area thats 300x300 yards square. Make the fenses 12 feet high with razor wire on top, between, and ten feet outside the outer fence.

Put a tower at every corner and half way between each corner. Man each tower with a guy with a rifle with a decent optic. Have two or three roving patrols that are armed.

Have a secured entry way with a metal scanner and dual sally port. Clear backpacks only. You'd be surprised how many people you can get through in a short amount of time.

The buildings wouldn't have to be hardened like a prison, so it would be infinitely cheaper. Build a back gate sally port for buses and commercial vehicles to enter, get searched, and unload.

You'd have plenty of room for classrooms, dining halls, and several athletic fields.


I think I just saw 10,000 snowflakes melt. :cool:
 
Just build schools like prisons. You don't see much happening there. Double fence an area thats 300x300 yards square. Make the fenses 12 feet high with razor wire on top, between, and ten feet outside the outer fence.

Put a tower at every corner and half way between each corner. Man each tower with a guy with a rifle with a decent optic. Have two or three roving patrols that are armed.

Have a secured entry way with a metal scanner and dual sally port. Clear backpacks only. You'd be surprised how many people you can get through in a short amount of time.

The buildings wouldn't have to be hardened like a prison, so it would be infinitely cheaper. Build a back gate sally port for buses and commercial vehicles to enter, get searched, and unload.

You'd have plenty of room for classrooms, dining halls, and several athletic fields.

I love this idea! And I sense no sarcasm at all... :rolleyes:

Or, we can just forget about it and continue spouting our "Don't tread on me!" arguments, cause those seem to be working so well. :D
 
I'm a taxpayer and I'm for security too. But, it is expensive.

The questions I would ask of Broward County parents are, "how important is your child's safety to you," and "how much is it worth to you?"

There are 3000 students in that school. If each parent kicked in $10/month, over a 9 month semester, that is $270K. Double that to $20/month and it's $540K. $20 per month is probably half of what they spend each month at Starbucks.

How much security do you think $540K would buy you? And I bet $20/month is looking pretty cheap after what just went down at that school. If you could have paid $20/month to prevent that nut job from doing what he did, would you? I think $20/month is looking pretty cheap when you put it in that context.

Now...should the government pay to secure our schools? I don't know. Realistically they probably don't have the money even though we all know they should, what with all the wasteful spending and mismanagement in our government. But if you sit here and wait for the government to step in and secure your kid's schools, you will probably be waiting a good long time.

If I were a parent with kids in school, I would be trying to band together with other like minded parents and the school administration to see what we could make happen at that level. Because it's highly unlikely the government is going to do much.
 
I can't stand the vague "do something" which is usually aimed at us. I was FB posting back and forth with my wife's liberal cousin about this. She is against arming teachers. I said what about removing the gun free school zone so teachers and staff who were trained, vetted and approved by the school board could carry on body if they wanted to? She said teachers want less guns not more. I asked her which sign is more likely to deter an attacker?
98f025d0966a5366fd44e106cb83fd2c.jpg
She doubled down and said that we need more laws restricting gun ownership. I told her that there are a lot of laws now which are not enforced and asked "What new laws do you want?"

Still no response.
 
I can't stand the vague "do something" which is usually aimed at us. I was FB posting back and forth with my wife's liberal cousin about this. She is against arming teachers.

It can take years to undo the anti-gun leftist brain washing. ;)

I'm against *forcing* arms upon a teacher who either isn't already a gun-owner or is resistant to the idea. If they're not serious about self protection already then they likely won't have the mindset to properly secure their firearm on their person and effectively draw it when needed anyway.. But keeping it illegal for teachers that actually would want to have a chance at protecting themselves or others on campus is just ludicrous.

I said what about removing the gun free school zone so teachers and staff who were trained, vetted and approved by the school board could carry on body if they wanted to? She said teachers want less guns not more. I asked her which sign is more likely to deter an attacker?
View attachment 448471
She doubled down and said that we need more laws restricting gun ownership. I told her that there are a lot of laws now which are not enforced and asked "What new laws do you want?"

Still no response.

She can't wrap her head around the obvious logic implied by those two signs. It's sad, really. People don't want to actually think critically about anything that goes against their politics.
 
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Of course she prefaces her argument with "I own and carry guns" which I hope not because she has been a HEAVY pot smoker for years while trying to get SSI disability. After her lawyer finally fired her, she gave up and got a job, but not before going full SJW with her transgender girl married to a transgender boy living with the family. Yeah lost cause.
 
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Reinstate the Board of Education. Sorry I don't have a picture but everyone over 40 knows what it is. Beyond making for great stories 20 years later, it did wonders for getting a yoof's mind right.

Imagine a $5 block of wood taking care of what billions of dollars of pharmaceuticals have not. We have the answers but we are too enlightened enacted them.
 
I do wish that the "Powers that Be"...would ask teachers and other school staff...Just what they would like to see in School Security measures.
Many different folks have been saying that this needs to be done...or that needs to happen...
But no one has asked the folks that have to work and teach there...what they want.

Whatever gets done:
It will be expensive...
A understanding that each school and even each classroom is different , so a "one size fits all answer" will not work...It will take many different solutions to work together ...
The various schools around the country will have to get a different mindset...one that is flexible and allows for school staff to use their own initiative , for when , whatever school safety measures they have in place fail...
The schools will have understand that in the first chaotic minutes to hours even...they might be on their own...without the help , they need...

A long look at our education system and our school counseling system is in order...to see what is working and what needs help or to be replaced....especially in relation to finding , reporting and getting the support to those who fall into the category of a 'School Shooter"...
And yes this means more money , "profiling" and if run unchecked , can be abused....

I do wish that I or anyone else , had some answers that made sense and worked ...but wishes do not get things done...
Hard questions and the hard work to make the solutions happen is what is needed.
Along with the understanding that what works in one school , may not work in a different school.
Andy
 
Or, we can just forget about it and continue spouting our "Don't tread on me!" arguments, cause those seem to be working so well. :D[/QUOTE]




Yes, though what many fail to comprehend, is this is not a negotiation for a new right. This is a right already instilled in the fabric of this great nation.
I will not give and take
I will not listen to so called "reasonable arguments "
I will not let someone or a entity Tread on Me.
I will protect this right for my neighbor and my children.


I for one will not negotiate with terrorists !!
 
I do wish that the "Powers that Be"...would ask teachers and other school staff...Just what they would like to see in School Security measures.
Many different folks have been saying that this needs to be done...or that needs to happen...
But no one has asked the folks that have to work and teach there...what they want.

Whatever gets done:
It will be expensive...
A understanding that each school and even each classroom is different , so a "one size fits all answer" will not work...It will take many different solutions to work together ...
Andy

There is and easy solution that wont cost the schools anymore then they spend now.
We have to decides if spending millions each year is worth sports or safety and priorities.
The average highschool spends hundreds of thousands if not millions on sports.
We have to sit back and look do we want to have people grow up as football stars or not grow up at all ?
I love sports and I get the whole idea of school sports but it should take a back burner to any safety concerns.
 
There is and easy solution that wont cost the schools anymore then they spend now.
We have to decides if spending millions each year is worth sports or safety and priorities.
The average highschool spends hundreds of thousands if not millions on sports.
We have to sit back and look do we want to have people grow up as football stars or not grow up at all ?
I love sports and I get the whole idea of school sports but it should take a back burner to any safety concerns.

IMO sports and physical activity is just as important as learning math, proper English, biology and other subjects taught in schools. Sports teaches team work and how to come together with others to get something done. There's also the fact that now days parents are required to pay extra for every for every sport their kid participates in. When I was in high school the football program only required the players bring towels and jock straps.
 
There is and easy solution that wont cost the schools anymore then they spend now.
We have to decides if spending millions each year is worth sports or safety and priorities.
The average highschool spends hundreds of thousands if not millions on sports.
We have to sit back and look do we want to have people grow up as football stars or not grow up at all ?
I love sports and I get the whole idea of school sports but it should take a back burner to any safety concerns.

I love sports too. All the high schools in this area now have, or are in the process of getting, artificial turf / field turf. The cost $$$ is astronomical but they are somehow doing it through donations and partnerships with private business. If 1/10 of the energy now being leveled at the NRA was directed toward securing the schools, we would be well on our way.

It is hard for me to believe this many years after 9/11, schools continue to go on without any real security. Anymore you can't go to an enclosed space where people congregate without being wanded. And, I agree money is part of the problem. But there's another part of the problem, which is 1. most of the staff cannot stomach the idea that it's their own students killing them and killing each other, and 2. a lot of kids are actively smuggling contraband, and they don't want anyone putting an end to their fun.
 
Perhaps a nice healthy tax on pro sports stars that earn over $200,000.00 a year? After all every one of them get THEIR start on the way to incredible fame and fortune in those public schools?
 
Perhaps a nice healthy tax on pro sports stars that earn over $200,000.00 a year? After all every one of them get THEIR start on the way to incredible fame and fortune in those public schools?

Until just a couple of years ago the NFL paid no taxs as they were dsignated a 501(c) charitable organization...

I think "Pro Sports" should pay for some of it...

On the other hand, I personally don't think that the Progressives want schools to be secure until they have all the guns, it doesn't fit their narrative...
 

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