Quick thoughts on school shootings on my website.

[joshkk]

I don't see most of those as "masculine," they're the traits of "bubblegums."

They're definitely in the world. And have long been condemned by civilized people.

Whether you personally may not see those traits as "masculine," those ARE exactly the sort of traits and associations that people are pointing to when they decry a "toxic masculinity" and there's widespread research of a variety of sorts that show that those indeed ARE traits that many men (globally) feel pressured towards. Polls have shown that there is a significant gap between what men feel in their heart-of-hearts about what acting masculine means and what they feel society pressures them to act like.



Yes, condemned by many, but also encouraged and supported by many both overtly and tacitly. I think the internet and social media age has definitely had a negative effect in terms of the amplification effect of exposing young men who are at a natural age of exploring/understanding/learning "what it means to be a man" to the darker traits that I listed, online "Incel" communities, for example.

 

[billdeserthills]

School shootings are going to happen just like workplace shootings. Be nice to your peers and you will stand a better chance of coming out the other side on your feet.

I am in support of arming teachers and workers. If a shooter is moving from classroom to classroom I would rather my kids were stuck in a locked classroom with an armed teacher vs an unarmed teacher.

What a great new reason to start playing nice with others!

 

[Cavedweller]

God forbid parents actually pay attention to, and raise their children properly.

View attachment 1080664

Would you say that mass shootings is an issue within our culture? If so, it seems appropriate to search for cultural-level answers...

This is the crux of the matter. It all started to fall apart when women were enticed (coerced?) into the workforce. Wages were depressed and it became necessary for 2 income earners to support a family. Women belong at home raising their children and kids need their moms at home. The latch-key kid phenomenon and the electronic baby sitter are symptoms of societal decay. The feminist movement is a con which is destroying America. If thinking so makes me a sexist then I wear the badge proudly.

If there were a frequent history of mass shootings or stabbings taking place at private daycare centers would you want your daycare provider to have the option of being armed? I would.

Day care is a poor substitute for parenting.

 

[No_Regerts]

Ok, then if the term is what's offensive, take the specific phrase out....

Why, would you say, is it the case that virtually all mass shooters are male? Does anything that I wrote about those cultural values that associate masculinity with emotional repression and violence as a principle means of problem-solving resonate with you or your observations of our society?

I'm certainly not trying to "create hate against men and guilt within the male community," I'm trying to encourage some honest cultural reflection about how we raise our boys and young men.

It's because humanity tries to overcome nature. We forget that we are animals. In the animal kingdom, undesirable males would be culled from the population because there is no need for having more than a few males for a group of females to achieve genetic diversity and pass good genetics while eliminating poor genetics.

Instead, humans leave them around. We start campaigns where "violence isn't the answer" and "stop bullying". This actually creates MORE bullies because it opens up the opportunity for people to be disgusting to each other without repercussions. Add social media, and now we have a legion of bullies.

Look at the instances of mass killings, not just shootings, that involve sexually inferior males. It's not the homecoming king or the captain of the football team that shoots up a school. It's some worm who lacks a spine. Someone with no competitive drive to make themselves better. Someone that girls don't want to have sex with.

Kinda turns the "toxic masculinity" thing on its head. Especially when more and more boys grow up without a father to teach them how to deal with things like a man.

 

[Xaevian]

Let me put it this way:

If addressing this mythical "toxic masculinity" is as simple as you make it out to be, why hasn't it been done?

The answer is because it is not that simple. Individuals are, by definition individuals. What works for one will not work for all. Humans and their psychologists are INFINITELY complex.

Bottom line is, a-hole is gonna a-hole. You could spend a lifetime trying to understand, and many, many people have studied and tried, and STILL not understand.

A broad brush approach will make things worse.

 

[joshkk]

I didn't say it would be simple, I acknowledged that it would take generations and require both significant individual and societal work. There are clearly plenty of people actively working towards a healthier culture of masculinity and there are also clearly plenty of people who are actively working to oppose that work.

I also said that toxic masculinity doesn't just show up as school shootings, but also sexual and domestic violence, reluctance by men to seek necessary medical care, alcohol abuse and the variety of dangers that come with that, suicide, etc. A cultural shift towards a healthier masculinity would also serve to mitigate those various other negative impacts, which all makes it seem like a worthwhile goal.

 

[Xaevian]

You speak like masculinity IS the problem, and that is where I disagree. Completely.

People are the problem. Regardless of gender. Next time a mother cuts the throats of her kids with an effing steak knife, what do you call that? Toxic motherhood? What about when a mother puts her baby in the effing microwave? Drowns them in a bathtub?... This happens FAR more in the U.S. than school or even all mass shootings combined. And yet, here we are...

 

[joshkk]

I don't believe that "masculinity" is the problem, I think there are plenty of admirable qualities associated with masculinity, I'm happy to be a man myself, and am NOT "man-hating." Rather (as I've said repeatedly in this thread) there are specific traits that society encourages boys and men towards such as emotional repression and an encouragement towards violence as a principle problem-solving tool that are the issue.

Of course women commit horrific crimes too but look at the statistics of who perpetuates violent crime and you'll see it's not even close in terms of gender disparity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime#In_the_United_States

"A 2013 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that males accounted for about 95 percent of all convicted homicide perpetrators worldwide."

Just to pull out a few stats relevant to the particular crimes you described:

• Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological father conviction was slightly higher than for biological mothers.
• However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% of the people that were convicted were males.

Here's some more from the link above:
2011 arrest data from the FBI:[52]

• Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape[52]
• Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery[52]
• Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[52]
• Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[52]
• Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[52]
• Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[52]
• Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[52]
• Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[52]

Given that men make up less than half of the population in the USA, how can you look at those lopsided stats and NOT think "there must be something about how men are interacting with the world around them" that's an issue here?

 

[Xaevian]

Rather (as I've said repeatedly in this thread) there are specific traits that society encourages boys and men towards such as emotional repression and an encouragement towards violence as a principle problem-solving tool that are the issue.

Then why are so few men out of the whole population of men the only ones that seem to have a problem? Do you see what I'm getting at? Maybe the problem isn't those traits, but the individual themselves are broken inside? Unless focus is given to the individual based upon their unique needs, nothing changes. The other portion of my point is if we engineer society based on the few aberrations, do you know what the effect will be on the vast majority that seem to be coping just fine? No one does, because humans are individual social creatures that depend on social norms to function.

The thread title was "quick thoughts...", but this has turned into lengthy dissertations, lol.

 

[Cavedweller]

Rather (as I've said repeatedly in this thread) there are specific traits that society encourages boys and men towards such as emotional repression and an encouragement towards violence as a principle problem-solving tool that are the issue.

"A 2013 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that males accounted for about 95 percent of all convicted homicide perpetrators worldwide."

What do global stats and UN studies have to do with our society? Which other country in the world would you rather live in?

Consider this statistic:

99% of everything the UN does is bullsh1t.

 

[No_Regerts]

I don't believe that "masculinity" is the problem, I think there are plenty of admirable qualities associated with masculinity, I'm happy to be a man myself, and am NOT "man-hating." Rather (as I've said repeatedly in this thread) there are specific traits that society encourages boys and men towards such as emotional repression and an encouragement towards violence as a principle problem-solving tool that are the issue.

Of course women commit horrific crimes too but look at the statistics of who perpetuates violent crime and you'll see it's not even close in terms of gender disparity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime#In_the_United_States

"A 2013 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that males accounted for about 95 percent of all convicted homicide perpetrators worldwide."

Just to pull out a few stats relevant to the particular crimes you described:

• Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological father conviction was slightly higher than for biological mothers.
• However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% of the people that were convicted were males.

Here's some more from the link above:
2011 arrest data from the FBI:[52]

• Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape[52]
• Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery[52]
• Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[52]
• Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[52]
• Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[52]
• Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[52]
• Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[52]
• Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[52]

Given that men make up less than half of the population in the USA, how can you look at those lopsided stats and NOT think "there must be something about how men are interacting with the world around them" that's an issue here?

This is the effect of testosterone. Look at any animal that is known to be unpredictable and aggressive and you'll find they have higher testosterone levels. Bull sharks are a great example. Their testosterone levels are much higher than other shark species.

What people call "toxic masculinity" is really the way we've figured out how to mitigate the effects of testosterone and then channel it into something good.
An example is the suppression of emotions. It keeps you from dwelling on emotional pain to the point where you can't control your anger.

Is it perfect? Not for everyone. People point at increased suicide rates among males. That may be bad on the individual and family level, but it does no harm to society.

 

[Jay Walk]

Ask any single woman under the age of 35 about the current supply of masculine men.

I dare ya.

 

[Member 52301]

In cases where the evidence is 100% damning, like this one, I'll help you pull the lever!

I believe in the death penalty after a fair, speedy and sane trial even though some people hate me for saying this. DNA, other evidence, witnesses, confessions, fair trial, etc.

I believe in 2 types of carrying out the sentence.

Firing squad using a 30-30 Winchester lever action rifle

or

having the murderer be hung with a sturdy rope.

NO gas, NO electric and NO needles where the person gets to be PUT TO SLEEP like you put down a very old, very sick or dying dog.

Cate

 

[joshkk]

Ok, I'm not going to keep beating my head against a wall of people who believe in strict biological determinism and don't seem to believe that cultural influences have anything to do with anything.

Unless you are able to point to some other unifying or common factor(s) that connect the perpetrators of virtually all mass shootings or propose other tangible steps we can take to lessen such occurrences, I'm personally going to continue to believe that the one common factor (males) is where we should focus our attention in mitigating the incidence of such future shootings.

I wish you all the best!

 

[Member 52301]

You speak like masculinity IS the problem, and that is where I disagree. Completely.

People are the problem. Regardless of gender. Next time a mother cuts the throats of her kids with an effing steak knife, what do you call that? Toxic motherhood? What about when a mother puts her baby in the effing microwave? Drowns them in a bathtub?... This happens FAR more in the U.S. than school or even all mass shootings combined. And yet, here we are...

Amen!

D - straight!

I am sending you a cup of hot, black coffee and an apple turnover across the miles!

Take care.

Cate

 

[No_Regerts]

Ok, I'm not going to keep beating my head against a wall of people who believe in strict biological determinism and don't seem to believe that cultural influences have anything to do with anything.

Unless you are able to point to some other unifying or common factor(s) that connect the perpetrators of virtually all mass shootings or propose other tangible steps we can take to lessen such occurrences, I'm personally going to continue to believe that the one common factor (males) is where we should focus our attention in mitigating the incidence of such future shootings.

I wish you all the best!

Not males, inferior males.

 

[billdeserthills]

I believe in the death penalty after a fair, speedy and sane trial even though some people hate me for saying this. DNA, other evidence, witnesses, confessions, fair trial, etc.

I believe in 2 types of carrying out the sentence.

Firing squad using a 30-30 Winchester lever action rifle

or

having the murderer be hung with a sturdy rope.

NO gas, NO electric and NO needles where the person gets to be PUT TO SLEEP like you put down a very old, very sick or dying dog.

Cate

Since 1973, at least 186 former death row inmates have been found innocent of all charges

Innocence

The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment.…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

I used to feel much the same way you do about a speedy trial & execution but not while this gov't is doing the honors

 

[Member 52301]

BLAME the individual CRIMINAL who does the dirty deed whether they are a male or a female.

I believe that the term toxic masculine behavior would and should be applied to FEMALES too. That is if you choose to use IT which I really don't or really believe in.

You could say that we live in a SICKO society - depraved culture where INDIVIDUAL people are poisonous to one another and they may have toxic - nasty - mean relationships with one another in their same sex or in a male/female relationship.

I do believe that some INDIVIDUALS are just plain EVIL too. Many people do not believe that there is such a thing called EVIL in war time or in peace time but I do believe that people can be evil. BOTH sexes! On an individual basis.

Women and men can be real you know whats in today's society. Manipulative, full of it with a huge ego, never admitting that they are wrong, calling themselves THE CHOSEN ONE, uh huh, con job artists, liars, thieves and tons more.

MOST of these types of individuals are just plain sickos - creeps or a__ holes as one POSTER already mentioned (LOL) and a bunch of them are perverts too.

They can be in ALL types of professions and even at the top of the ladder. ADD in the presidents, politicians, religious leaders and MANY, many other professions.

I think that the words Toxic Masculinity is a bunch of HOOEY and psycho babble - bs salami put out there by MANY MALE HATERS, the MASS MEDIA, big pharma that pushes all of those drugs especially to MALES, by a lot of people who are NOT heterosexuals in healthy and HAPPY relationships, by bat s crazy feminists who ALWAYS want to BLAME A MAN OR A GUN, by people who don't have the TESTICULAR FORTITUDE aka balls, courage, strength and HONESTY or take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for their INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS.

Women and men can have testicular fortitude (An old saying that has been out there and I have personally used it the past too.) to call a spade a spade and be honest and blunt in their opinions. A LOT of people don't like that in MEN and especially in WOMEN too.

Men and women are WIRED differently and not just due to their hormones. I don't care how much some bat s crazy feminist or some limp wristed INCEL or whatever they call those men say - WE ARE NOT ALL ALIKE!

Men and women are different. Period!

I can guarantee you that I have known informally and up close and personal (NOT by choice in most cases.) more female witches as there are male sons of guns in the PAST and in today's society.

And yes, NASTY witches and NASTY sons of guns come in BOTH SEXES as individuals, flavors, professions, political parties, ages, religions or lack of them, nationalities, etc.

Old Lady Cate

 

[Mikej]

Ok, I'm not going to keep beating my head against a wall of people who believe in strict biological determinism and don't seem to believe that cultural influences have anything to do with anything.

Unless you are able to point to some other unifying or common factor(s) that connect the perpetrators of virtually all mass shootings or propose other tangible steps we can take to lessen such occurrences, I'm personally going to continue to believe that the one common factor (males) is where we should focus our attention in mitigating the incidence of such future shootings.

I wish you all the best!

Good! Buh bye.
This thread was in and out of my mind all yesterday after I tuned out about 11:30am. The more I thought about it the more annoyed I became. I googled "Toxic Masculinity" AND "Toxic Femininity". Then this morning I was on one of those short-video viewing sessions where you go from vid to vid? I stumbled on Jordan Peterson. He's my new favorite common sense guy. He pretty explains that "Toxic Masculinity" for what it is. Total garbage!

This "guy?", or female of the species, sounds like a robot. All kinds of common sense responses that pretty much get ignored, and what ever it is he/she (They?) ignore those responses and continues on with the same stuff.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Ok, I'm not going to keep beating my head against a wall of people who believe in strict biological determinism and don't seem to believe that cultural influences have anything to do with anything.

Unless you are able to point to some other unifying or common factor(s) that connect the perpetrators of virtually all mass shootings or propose other tangible steps we can take to lessen such occurrences, I'm personally going to continue to believe that the one common factor (males) is where we should focus our attention in mitigating the incidence of such future shootings.

I wish you all the best!

You're right. We should probably try incorporating K-12 politically correct think and prescribing Ritalin.
Fingers crossed!