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Quick SBR Question

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by RedneckRampage, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. RedneckRampage

    RedneckRampage Newberg Well-Known Member

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    So, I really want a Colt Commando style rifle, but have a question about the legal part of it.

    I know SBRs are not allowed in WA state (where my parents live). If I get my stamp, for the only lower that I have, which right now had a 16" upper on it, can I go back and forth between the uppers, and take it into WA when I have the 16" upper on it? Or since it is then "registered", will it come up that it is an SBR if the numbers are ran, therefore making it illegal? I don't want to be limited on where I can shoot the gun in even a normal configuration.
     
  2. OREGON FALER

    OREGON FALER Springfield, OR. Active Member

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    Make sure you put a 16" upper on it before you go to wash. But get that stamp rolling for where you live.
     
  3. PDXSparky

    PDXSparky Keizer / Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    It is only a SBR when you have an upper with a barrel less than 16". You are GTG with a rifle upper on your lower when traveling to WA.
     
  4. rayd8

    rayd8 Formerly Portland, now Alabama! Member

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    +1
     
  5. RedneckRampage

    RedneckRampage Newberg Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! I have an extra $200 laying around, I think it's time to get the stamp going, since I'll have such a long wait. I can save up for another upper in the mean time!
     
  6. Trailboss

    Trailboss Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if a person living in Washington could apply and receive a stamp for a SBR but then leave the short barrel off. If they did this could they then put the short barrel on when visiting Oregon?

    Questions...

    tb
     
  7. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I think the only issue would be with getting your CLEO signoff... some, that otherwise are OK signing on legal NFA stuff, might hesitate to sign your form 1 for an item you can't have in the state. You never know, though. If you're a trust/corp, that's obviously not going to be an issue, though.
     
  8. TDH

    TDH Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I believe the ATF would deny it.
     
  9. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Negative.
     
  10. TDH

    TDH Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    When you submit a form 1 for an SBR, you are applying to make a firearm. Since short barrel rifles are illegal in WA, for normal folks, why would you think they would approve an individual to make one?

    Good luck with it though :|
     
  11. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Two very important reasons:

    1: ATF is not responsible for individual state laws, is not required to keep up on them or care about them (and seem to have a general contempt for them).
    2: there are plenty of legal avenues for owning registered SBR lowers in WA.

    Come to think, I'm not actually sure if the two WA residents I know that have done it registered them at WA addresses or OR addresses. Regardless, it's going to come down to the examiner- If an examiner happened to notice or care that your form had a WA address, and happened to know or care that SBRs are generally prohibited in WA (LEOs file the same forms- how would an examiner know they were a cop?), then you would probably get a call from the examiner, wondering about the details of your plans. If you said, "durp.. I'm just gonna ignore the local law," I'm sure your application would be denied. If you explained that you're an LEO, or have an Oregon residence where you'll keep your SBR, or that you're going to leave your short-barreled upper in an Oregon location, you'd be fine.

    Whatever the case, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of legally possessed registered SBRs in the state of WA. Living in WA does not mean you live behind an iron curtain, it just means one more hoop to jump through.
     
  12. TDH

    TDH Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Well there you go.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Schwabdl

    Schwabdl Hillsboro Active Member

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    This is not true at all. Part of the reason form 1 and 4 take so long to process is the examiner has to make sure the item is legal in the area you plan to own it. As for the legality of it probably best to consult the attorney you would be hiring to defend you for legal advice.
     
    jbett98 and (deleted member) like this.
  14. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Not true at all, huh? What makes you think that? I don't make stuff up, bro. If I haven't seen it in writing from the ATF, read it myself in the statutes, or otherwise have first hand information about something, I keep my mouth shut about it.

    There's nothing illegal about possessing or owning a registered SBR lower in Washington. This is pretty well established. Federally, it's legal to own a short-barreled rifle everywhere except DC. The states have their own definitions of what constitutes an SBR, and I've never seen a definition that included anything like "...and receivers registered with the NFA branch of the ATF as short barreled rifles." Washington's statutes define an SBR as a rifle having a barrel shorter than 16", nothing more, nothing less. ATF defines an SBR exactly the same, registered or not. The ATF has further stated very clearly that changing out a short barrel for one longer than 16" automatically converts it to a regular GCA rifle.

    This stuff isn't that complicated. People seem to want to make it very complicated... I guess that keeps the feeling of exclusivity to it, for some. Who knows.
     
  15. Schwabdl

    Schwabdl Hillsboro Active Member

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    I never said that an SBR receiver is illegal in Washington state. To that I would have to check with my lawyer. However your statement that NFA examiners do not check on the legality of each item they approve at the local level is flat out wrong. Every single examiner checks the local legality of every item they approve. They do this every time even if they have recently approved an item to make sure local laws haven't changed. This is also why examiners are assigned geographically. So in short it would appear that yes you do speak about which you do not know. As well as offering legal advice on a public forum which is well dangerous at best.
     
  16. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    You quoted my entire post and said "this is not true at all." If you're nitpicking, be specific.

    Me presenting my opinion, whether I'm sure or not, does not constitute "offering legal advice." I'm not a practicing attorney (or non-practicing, for that matter), I'm a guy who's switched-on and generally right. Having been doing the NFA thing for the better part of a decade and having many friends who also make, transfer, and have a multitude of NFA items, including in the state of WA, I've got a good grasp on this topic.

    You and I can keep arguing on our own authority (worth exactly what we're paying for it), or we can go to the source. Apparently I'm out-dated on how examiners are assigned- as of June 17, 2011, the NFA examiner's office has been reorganized. ATF Open Letter | ATF

    NFA examiners have always been assigned by last name, not region, and they've been adamant that YOU'RE responsible for ensuring YOU are following YOUR own STATE laws. If or how much of that has changed, this letter does not say. If you have some documentation to support your argument, I'd be eager to see it. Otherwise, "nuh uh, nuh uh" isn't going to convince me of anything.
     
  17. Schwabdl

    Schwabdl Hillsboro Active Member

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    If you continued reading past that not true at all point you would see what part of your statement I had issues with :laugh: I don't disagree with you completely however that statement was blatantly false. From your link

    We expect this change in the assignment of applications to better enable NFA examiners to develop State law expertise and more knowledgeably and effectively respond to our customers during an era of unprecedented and ever increasing application volume. Please contact the NFA Branch at 304-616-4500 with any questions about this change.
     
  18. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    The ATF will not approve your Form 1 if the firearm is illegal in your state. From the instructions on the Form 1:

    7. Reasons for Disapproval.

    26 U.S.C. § 5822 provides that applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the maker in violation of law.

    a. State or Local Law. If State or local law prohibits the making or possession of the firearm being made, the application will be disapproved.


    How would they know to disapprove it if they didn't check for legality in your state first?
     
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