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Problem with Crimp: Hornady Custom Grade Dies (.300BLK)

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by Dyjital, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Solution:

    The Hornady Die set 546349:
    I emailed Hornady, their solution was to give them a call.

    So this morning I called their technical line and this is what the conversation went like:
    Dyjital: Having an issue with die set 546349 and crimp.

    Hornady Rep: .300 Blackout, this die set has a 90" roll crimp ring, so unless you are using a cannelure bullet you will start to damage the shoulder.


    Dyjital:
    That explains it, I was making sure I wasn't crazy, thanks for your time.

    Hornady Rep: Even in these dies there will be more than enough neck tension to hold without a crimp in an AR.

    Dyjital: Thank you sir and that answers that question. Problem solved.


    So that's the solution to these die sets. No cannelure = no crimp. Even then with cannelure you can only add a little because of the 90* crimp ring. If more crimp is needed one must use a taper or a Lee FCD/Lyman etc made for this in that capacity.

    Total call time (including prompts and the 15 seconds I waited for somebody to answer - I was 1 in the queue) was 3 minutes.


     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
  2. JustShoot

    JustShoot Oregon . Hillsborito area Active Member

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    just get a
    Lee 90590 300 AAC BLK , factory Colet Crimp . and never look back .
    There is no other Die crimp design that is superior .
    .
    Usually see them sold for around 22-$ area . BUT .. I have seen them sold new, as little as 12-$ on ebay .
    .

    edit add:
    It is the most ' User/Shooter Friendly ' Crimp Die sold for Reloaders .
    Also, you will get so much better uniformity in velocity on your Subsonic loads in your BLK with this Crimp .
    it not a roll crimp or a tapper crimp . It also does not need Case length OAL uniformity for keeping the exact crimp to every round . or need of bullet Cannelure for positive Crimp .
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
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  3. JDAVIS

    JDAVIS washington co. Member

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    ill try and take a pic of mine tonight when i get home and compare
     
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  4. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Thanks. Typically I've used the die sets (all others are Lee and RCBS) so this is my first experience with a Hornady set.

    I may end up just not crimping since these go in a bolt rifle if this turns out to be a PITA.
     
  5. JDAVIS

    JDAVIS washington co. Member

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    I just checked my hornady set and they look just like yours. I'll pm you
     
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  6. noylj

    noylj high desert Active Member

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    I know this is an "uncool" response, but call Hornady and talk to them.
    Might be a technique issue or a faulty die, but they are your best source to solve the problem.
    I load jacketed bullets generally, and neither flare the case mouth nor crimp the round.
    Make up a few inert dummy rounds and cycle in your rifle and see if there is any bullet set-back.
     
    blackadder likes this.
  7. SinisterSouthpaw

    SinisterSouthpaw SW WA Active Member

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    You should be able to seat and crimp with the same die according to what I saw on the Hornady website. That is pretty well standar function in the industry. So-- I agree that you ought to call Hornady about the problem.

    Still, I never try to seat and crimp using the seating die. You get a lot more control and vesatility using a seperate crimp die.
    Where I part ways with a previous poster is that I don't find Lee crimpers to be the best for my needs-- Lee has a post sizing function that I find annoying and also inaccurate. If a beginner wants a crimper that will help fix his tendency to over-crimp, then the Lee will help some.

    Over-crimping makes the bullet swell--you squeezed it--the lead has to go somewhere. The post size/crimp function of the Lee die squeezes the bullet back toward its original shape--sort of. It is forced into a shape Lee likes and maybe you don't. In addition this, extra swaging can crack the coating on plated bullets--which can end up leaving mass amounts of copper in your barrel if you shoot loads on the hot side.

    I am in the process of replacing all my handgun crimp dies (formerly Lee) with Redding dies appropriate for each cartridge. The difference is readily apparent once you use the Redding and they are not that much more $$$ than the Lee. I do not crimp rifle cartridges since I use bushing dies for them.
     
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  8. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    You are describing Lee crimp dies for pistols which have the obnoxious sizing ring that you describe. What is being suggested is to use a Lee FCD for a rifle cartridge which does not have the ring.

    Since this is a bolt gun I'm going to agree that you should just skip the crimp. If neck tension isn't strong enough you can polish down the expanding ball a tad or go with bushing dies to really dial it in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  9. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    I've been reading about making the expander ball smaller if I needed more neck tension.
     
  10. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    I've been loading for my M1A using Hornady 308W dies (which should use the same expander ball) and not had any issues with neck tension. The expander measures 0.308" exactly and the necks of the sized brass are all right at 0.306".
     
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  11. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Yeah, I've noticed there is a good amount of tension when I'm seating a flat base bullet. Kind of groans/resists then gives up and let's the bullet be seated.

    I doubt I'll need more tension.


    I think the final solution will be to get a factory crimp die from Lee if I feel that I need crimp. I just found it bizarre that I wasn't able to crimp like the die set said. I really want to neck size only to make super duper special ammunition but I'll deal with full length sized brass for now.

    Again thanks all. I'll update when I get in touch with Hornady.
     
  12. JustShoot

    JustShoot Oregon . Hillsborito area Active Member

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    No matter what Crimp Die you settle on for your reloading this particular caliber . 30-221/30blk is beloved but a special handicap Freak with needs .
    There are needs of proper Crimp with this Round more than just the obviously desire for reliable feed function with AR platform .
    Crimping is will be desired in both your AR platform and Boltaction . Especially when dealing with the lighter weight .30 cal bullets, light-weights with boat-tail are even worse . When you are seeking a particular OAL and you will not fully Seat the bullet in filling the Neck length . Then also subsonic rounds with you reloading this particular cartridge . Whether it be AR or Boltgun, Crimp aids proper function, uniformity of ignition and helps accuracy .
    .
     
  13. SinisterSouthpaw

    SinisterSouthpaw SW WA Active Member

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    Sorry I did not make myself more clear earlier-- I was rushed--


    The Lee factory crimp die for bottle necked cartridges is indeed different from their straight wall cartridge offerings, being a Collete operating system.. Still, there is no way to insure that you get the same neck tension each and every time using the Lee die--acceptable for plinking/ hunting in most cases, I suppose, but wildly inaccurate if and when you need to know what kind of neck tension you a putting on your bullet. As I mentioned--crimp dies for rifle cartridges are unacceptable--for me--and Lee pistol crimpers are as well.........and although I don't know any personally, there are people who used plated bullets in rifle cartridges..........and since the Collete has no calibration or gage to let you know how much you are squeezing the neck and the bullet--the risk remains for beginners..............

    I have been talking to a couple of other BR shooters on another forum who claim there are Collete operated neck and FL sizing dies with calibrated neck sizing capability, but they cannot give me a brand name nor any ordering info, so I continue to regard the Collete as unreliable when we are talking about .001" tolerances in neck tension................
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2015
  14. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Thanks Sinister. Good thing I'm not doing bench rest shooting. I use the collet crimp die for my .223 but that's plinking, I guess if I did single shot .223 again I would just ensure that the proper neck tension is there from the expander ball.
     
  15. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Years ago Lee and Sierra went in circles arguing in their advertising that crimping would our would not aid accuracy, particularly when using bullets with no cannelure. There are enough people out there competing in and winning matches with and without crimps for me to say that you can't just paint the shooting world with one big brush that says "crimp" or "don't crimp". I realize we're not all shooting in matches, but I think it helps illustrate that as far as accuracy goes crimping alone isn't the deciding factor.

    Heck, I've even read somewhere an argument that modern powders no longer need crimping for proper ignition. But you know what they say about what you read on the internet.
     
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  16. FA9

    FA9 Hillsburrito, ORgun Well-Known Member

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    I think your die may be defective.
    This is 1 full turn using my hornady die:
    photo_129.jpg
     
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  17. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Yes my die is defective then if that's what it's supposed to do. My case would be buckled at the shoulder.
     
  18. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    @FA9

    So here is the brass:
    Photo Sep 25, 10 12 11 AM.jpg
    1.370"

    At zero (this is where the collet touches the case mouth)
    Photo Sep 25, 10 12 39 AM.jpg


    Now here is where it's 1/4 turn:
    Photo Sep 25, 10 13 02 AM.jpg

    The case starts to buckle. The mouth if flattening already and starting to flare outward like you over expanded the mouth. No stretching.
    Photo Sep 25, 10 13 18 AM.jpg

    Then I went to about 170*, the allen key is at 180*
    Photo Sep 25, 10 14 45 AM.jpg

    The case comes out like this:
    Photo Sep 25, 10 13 41 AM.jpg

    So yes. If this die set is supposed to crimp then there is an obvious defect. Zero evidence of crimp only crushing.


    Thank you @FA9 again, I'm writing Hornady today.

    Photo Sep 25, 10 12 11 AM.jpg
     
  19. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    It looks like the bullet alignment sleeve isn't going up far enough and hits the shoulder. Other than taking the die apart and making sure everything is cleaned and installed properly your best bet is Hornady for a new die.
     
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  20. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    The sleeve has full travel through the body die. Their setup is interesting and I can see how it's cost saving to use one outer and just change the inner pieces. Makes sense.

    Sleeve does go all the way to the top though. That little ol 300aac sure gets buried inside the die when seating.