Pistol Grip Shotguns (now NFA item?)

[Liberty97045]

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[Nwcid]

Well not sure about the "now" part since that is from 2010.

Basically what came of it is a pistol grip shotgun does NOT meet the definition of shotgun, http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Nor is it a handgun since it does not meet that definition (can also be found in the above link) nor any kind of NFA item since it does not fit those either.

I do not recall what they are actually calling them on the 4473 but they basically did same thing they did to AR-15 receivers. You have to be over 21 to buy them since they are not "long guns" which is the only thing persons under 21 can buy (federally).

 

[Caveman Jim]

So does a folding stock make it legal? Just curious...

 

[Nwcid]

So does a folding stock make it legal? Just curious...

Legal for what as a what? There is nothing illegal about pistol grip shotguns, so I am not sure what the question is.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

nor any kind of NFA item since it does not fit those either.
.

Nwcid is right...

It just doesn't meet the definition of "handgun" or "shotgun." Meaning you can't sell it to someone under the age of 21 as an FFL. Does not mean it's an NFA item.

Edit: I further read the link. It is interesting but I doubt it would hold with any weight in court. There are SO many pistol gripped firearms that are larger than .5" diameter the argument could be made that the law or interpretation of the law is obviously not what the link makes it out to be.

Virtually any pistol gripped shotgun (without a stock) larger than a .410 would be illegal and that is just not the case.

 

[Nwcid]

Here is the info on why the shotgun is NOT an NFA item, right from the NFA handbook, http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons. The second section of the definition states that any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. ATF has issued rulings classifying specific shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable forfor sporting purposes.19

 

[1337BaldEagle]

Here is the info on why the shotgun is NOT an NFA item, right from the NFA handbook, http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons. The second section of the definition states that any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. ATF has issued rulings classifying specific shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable forfor sporting purposes.19

Did you read the link? because "and intended to be fired from the shoulder" is a mandatory for that definition to hold true (in theory) for it to "be" a shotgun. We all know how "technical" the ATF is. What about this guy?

It's not been redesigned or intended to "be fired from the shoulder" and is ultimately what is up for debate. It doesn't fall under the ATF's shotgun definition so it wouldn't get the "excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes" exclusion.

 

[Nwcid]

This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

Or am I missing something else? This would seem to cover any firearm that uses a shotgun shell that is not an AOW or SBS.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

What I'm saying is since the Mossberg in the picture above doesn't qualify as a "shotgun" by the ATF's ruling definition, the exclusion of "shotguns" that the Attorney General makes in regards to NFA items may not apply. Least ways that's how it could be argued by those that appose firearm ownership.

Regardless, those that make laws should not have the job of interpreting them, those that interpret laws should not have the job of enforcing them. It is a huge conflict of intrust and the ATF dabbles in all three.

Eagle

 

[Nwcid]

I see your point, but it still fires shotgun shells which are exempt.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

I see your point, but it still fires shotgun shells which are exempt.

it's not exempt "if" it fires a shot shell. It is exempt (an item in question) if the Attorney General deems it to be a shotgun. It being a NFA item is not predicated on it even fireing shot. Just like a sawed off shotgun is technically not a shotgun even though it fires a shotshel. You see where I'm going with this?

 

[GrpCapMandrake]

it's not exempt "if" it fires a shot shell. It is exempt (an item in question) if the Attorney General deems it to be a shotgun. It being a NFA item is not predicated on it even fireing shot. Just like a sawed off shotgun is technically not a shotgun even though it fires a shotshel. You see where I'm going with this?

I see what your saying Eagle, but it is still a lot of conjecture on the "if's" and "but's" of a federal regulatory body and what they "may" or "may not" do about the existence of pistol grip shotguns. Look ATF, DOJ or U.S. could Congress decide tomorrow to turn the shooting world on it's head regarding what is legal or not.

While I agree there should be clear limitations on the ATF's ability to set, interpret and enforce laws, again it's the federal government and sadly requires enormous resources from those that seek to reign in it's overreach.

In the end though I still see pistol grip shotguns for sale. The reality then at the moment does not match the concern over the wording of what is or isn't an NFA firearm.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Legal for what as a what? There is nothing illegal about pistol grip shotguns, so I am not sure what the question is.

Legal to be a shotgun with a pistol grip & folding stock.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

I wasn't actually concerned about it I was just arguing from the point of view the OP's link.

 

[Nwcid]

Legal to be a shotgun with a pistol grip & folding stock.

If it has a stock then it meets the definition of "shotgun" (posted above) since it is intended to be fired from the shoulder.

The only issue that I am aware of that can come up with folding stocks is OAL. By Federal law OAL is measure from "extreme" ends meaning with stocks open or fully extended. There is a state or two that measures from the shortest possible length. So it might be possible depending on the combination to have a gun with an OAL under 26" when folded.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Thanks for the clarification Nwcid.

 

[GrpCapMandrake]

I wasn't actually concerned about it I was just arguing from the point of view the OP's link.

I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Not at all, I could see how easy it would have been to be mislead.

 

[del_and_bones]

...I do not recall what they are actually calling them on the 4473 but they basically did same thing they did to AR-15 receivers. You have to be over 21 to buy them since they are not "long guns" which is the only thing persons under 21 can buy (federally).

You are correct that you must be 21 to buy AR lowers and PGO (pistol grip only) 12ga's from a dealer. They transfer as "other on a 4473. Things which do transfer in this fashion do not meet the definition of handgun, long-gun, or NFA firearm. Here is a very short list of things which I know that transfer as "other":
AR Lowers, semi-auto M1919, PGO 12ga, any kind of stripped receiver considered to be a firearm