Picking a single rifle caliber for a group

[HB of CJ]

A fun subject! Lots of answers. All valid as far as it goes. We went through this years ago, (like about starting in 1961) and right now we are going through it again. My extended nuclear family wants to change platforms for our kinda hazzy to-go-to rifle for the SHTF. Or the one rifle platform we really want to bury deep if the situation calls for it. Grab the popcorn! A long post.

What we chose is not what others may choose. It all started when the cheap available surplus USGI M1 Carbines became available after the Korean war. I got my first early spring tube Rock Ola from my dad. He got it through the NRA and the CMP. It cost, if memory serves, about 20 bucks. I was about 12. The year was about 1961. A California State Guard armorer tuned it up.

It got traded off with lots of other guns for a 1957 Chevy 283. Long ago, far away. Then in about 1970 we decided to combine all the family various USGI M1 carbines we owned, (about 6 families; about 20 guns) into a common reference, training, fun time, maintenance, knowledge, spare parts, mags, books, gages, tools, more knowledge, ammo, gun smithing, etc., etc.. data base.

My extended nuclear family and close long term friends still have the Carbines. The learning curve to understand the platform was a long term endeavor. Took years. Right now I have over 15 different gages, tools, gadgets and over 10 reference books for the gun. Lots and lots of spare parts. Also the legal tax stamp to possess a military M2 Carbine. A light automatic rifle. All legal.

We chose the USGI M1 Carbine, (and a M2) because we already had them or could afford to buy such and legally license. The guns were already there. Our cost is unknown. Too long ago. Some Carbines we have owned for over 55 years. The round count grows. They guns are still in excellent condition. Total cost today is still very low. That is one reason why we have them.

Another reason is that the USGI M1 Carbine does so many things well. Also understand that it also can not do some things well. Anybody from the age of 8 to 88 can handle, shoot and hit with the M1 Carbine. Powerful enough inside 100 yards. Accurate enough with good ammo. The Carbine works for us. We have enough practice ammo. Enough SP duty ammo. Enough of everything.

BUT ... now everybody wants to change to the AR15 platform. They want me to be the armorer. I am resisting this. Too little time for me in the day. PLUS ... the naggy fact that to keep the carbines, (never sell off something good!) and build up 25 AR15 rifles will be very expensive. Too expensive. I know the AR15 platform. Have built hundreds. All it takes is big bucks. That and time and effort.

Respectfully. All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply. This is a legal disclaimer stating that it is legal to own and bear a USGI M2 Carbine up here in SW OR USA. Your local, county and state laws may vary greatly.

 

[3MTA3]

A fun subject! Lots of answers. All valid as far as it goes. We went through this years ago, (like about starting in 1961) and right now we are going through it again. My extended nuclear family wants to change platforms for our kinda hazzy to-go-to rifle for the SHTF. Or the one rifle platform we really want to bury deep if the situation calls for it. Grab the popcorn! A long post.

What we chose is not what others may choose. It all started when the cheap available surplus USGI M1 Carbines became available after the Korean war. I got my first early spring tube Rock Ola from my dad. He got it through the NRA and the CMP. It cost, if memory serves, about 20 bucks. I was about 12. The year was about 1961. A California State Guard armorer tuned it up.

It got traded off with lots of other guns for a 1957 Chevy 283. Long ago, far away. Then in about 1970 we decided to combine all the family various USGI M1 carbines we owned, (about 6 families; about 20 guns) into a common reference, training, fun time, maintenance, knowledge, spare parts, mags, books, gages, tools, more knowledge, ammo, gun smithing, etc., etc.. data base.

My extended nuclear family and close long term friends still have the Carbines. The learning curve to understand the platform was a long term endeavor. Took years. Right now I have over 15 different gages, tools, gadgets and over 10 reference books for the gun. Lots and lots of spare parts. Also the legal tax stamp to possess a military M2 Carbine. A light automatic rifle. All legal.

We chose the USGI M1 Carbine, (and a M2) because we already had them or could afford to buy such and legally license. The guns were already there. Our cost is unknown. Too long ago. Some Carbines we have owned for over 55 years. The round count grows. They guns are still in excellent condition. Total cost today is still very low. That is one reason why we have them.

Another reason is that the USGI M1 Carbine does so many things well. Also understand that it also can not do some things well. Anybody from the age of 8 to 88 can handle, shoot and hit with the M1 Carbine. Powerful enough inside 100 yards. Accurate enough with good ammo. The Carbine works for us. We have enough practice ammo. Enough SP duty ammo. Enough of everything.

BUT ... now everybody wants to change to the AR15 platform. They want me to be the armorer. I am resisting this. Too little time for me in the day. PLUS ... the naggy fact that to keep the carbines, (never sell off something good!) and build up 25 AR15 rifles will be very expensive. Too expensive. I know the AR15 platform. Have built hundreds. All it takes is big bucks. That and time and effort.

Respectfully. All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply. This is a legal disclaimer stating that it is legal to own and bear a USGI M2 Carbine up here in SW OR USA. Your local, county and state laws may vary greatly.

With the current market glutted with AR's I wouldn't build unless I had some specific design features that made it worth my while. With that many rifles I'd approach some vendors to get a group discount and save even more $$$ for spare parts, ammo, BUIS, and optics. You can also get nudies and add the furniture you want as another way. IMO something along the lines of the Springfield Saint is ideal (though they seem to have stepped in serious poo). I'd also take some of the saved $$$ and invest in a good community progressive reloading system so everyone can reload their training rounds.

 

[The Heretic]

Hunting ammo availability for 30-06 is far greater than the 308. I guarantee you'll find 5x more 30-06 loads than 308. The 30-06 loaded to modern pressure outclasses the 308 by a fair margin. I dont know about factory stuff, but my 30-06 handloads outsep my 308 loads by 200 fps at each bullet weight.

For the heavier loads yes, but west of the Cascades do you really need that faster load?

As another post mentioned, during major ammo shortages, current military calibers are the first to go. During wartime, this effects all .224 and all .308 cartridges. 270 and 40 S&W are always available.

I don't particularly buy into this theory. Ammo like 270 & 40/10mm, et. al., isn't as ubiquitous to start with. With the military calibers you can "stack it deep" now and more people out there will have it stacked deep in a SHTF situation.

Not so with the less popular calibers - how many people have 1K rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor sitting in their closet waiting for a SHTF event?

OTOH, how many people have 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 stacked deep? A LOT more people.

If "war" broke out, then yeah, you may not find 5.56 or 7.62 on the LGS shelves, but then you probably would not find anything there at all. Your most likely source of resupply will be private, whether that means friends or foe.

Like I said, I have at least one firearm in each of the popular calibers, and then some. If it was just for hunting, then I would not worry much about having just a couple hundred rounds, but for self-defense, you can go through that much ammo in minutes - even with a bolt action.

 

[The Heretic]

BTW - I prep for three people, myself, my daughter and her husband. I have the same defensive rifle for each of us, with the same ammo (stacked deep and getting deeper) and the same mags.

The same goes for defensive handgun and ammo.

Beyond that, I have other firearms for other popular calibers and ammo for most of those too.

Without ammo, a firearm is just an expensive club, so whatever you decide on, get that ammo now because it won't be very available if something serious happens.

 

[No_Regerts]

For the heavier loads yes, but west of the Cascades do you really need that faster load?



I don't particularly buy into this theory. Ammo like 270 & 40/10mm, et. al., isn't as ubiquitous to start with. With the military calibers you can "stack it deep" now and more people out there will have it stacked deep in a SHTF situation.

Not so with the less popular calibers - how many people have 1K rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor sitting in their closet waiting for a SHTF event?

OTOH, how many people have 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 stacked deep? A LOT more people.

If "war" broke out, then yeah, you may not find 5.56 or 7.62 on the LGS shelves, but then you probably would find anything there. Your most likely source of resupply will be private, whether that means friends or foe.

Like I said, I have at least one firearm in each of the popular calibers, and then some. If it was just for hunting, then I would not worry much about having just a couple hundred rounds, but for self-defense, you can go through that much ammo in minutes - even with a bolt action.

When OEF and OIF commenced, there was major shortages in any component used for military ammunition. If you are already stocked up, great. If not, its nice to go to Wally World and pick up a box of 270 or 7mm Rem Mag and a box of 40 S&W. 40 S&W is still mass produced and always available when .gov is soaking up 9mm and 45.

270 is one of the most common calibers you can find worldwide. So is 7mm Rem Mag. They are non-military and highly recommended for traveling hunters. The 270, 7mm Rem Mag, and 30-06 are the most used hunting cartridges in the world and are known as "the King's three".

In a SHTF situation, you aren't using a hunting rifle unless thats all you have. Not to say an entrenched group of people couldn't use them in some form. Hell, Carlos Hathcock used an M70 in 30-06 with a 3-9x Redfield on his first tour as a sniper.

 

[41mag]

another factor in caliber choice:
the (relatively few, granted) local old time professional gun smiths I know, have decades of building/customizing 'old military rifles' from around the world. These have been built & sold as economical serious big game getters for those on a budget.

While they all have their own favorite odd ball calibers, the ones I know tell me '308' when reworking the various .mil rifles by a large margin.

 

[No_Regerts]

Oh, and yes. As a hunter first and doomsday prepper tenth, cartridge performance is WAY more important to me than being able to find milsurp ball ammo. Anyone who shoots longer ranges and in any kind of wind would agree.

 

[JRuby]

The problem I have with a 308 or really almost any cartridge is that to me there are two loadings, one for semi autos and one for others
A perfect example i have three 30-06's two bolt actions and a browning bar. The two bolts will shoot slower warmer rounds than my bar will almost making the 30-06 in the bar perform like a lessor round comparatively. The platform will make a lot of differemce in your choice in my opinion
In a bolt or single shot I will always take a 30-06 in all other actions i will choose the 308 i am not governed by NATO standards.

 

[41mag]

re: "cartridge performance is WAY more important"

the nuances of satisfying this clearly defined goal has occupied many for centuries;

at the other end of 'ballistic reality' is the stealthy bow hunter clan, striving for the same results;

somewhere pragmatic reality kicks in and those 500 yard bulls eyes targets are weighed against an empty stew pot that require more than 300 yard skills.

If the preCuster tribes could run 'em down on bareback ponies with bow & arrow or drive 'em over the cliff, and the railroad meat wagons could deliver the buffaloes with 500g of rainbow trajectory lead & the Holy Black in 15# percussion rifles, I'm confident a group of hungry modern citizens with 308s could find a way to keep from starving.

 

[No_Regerts]

re: "cartridge performance is WAY more important"

the nuances of satisfying this clearly defined goal has occupied many for centuries;

at the other end of 'ballistic reality' is the stealthy bow hunter clan, striving for the same results;

somewhere pragmatic reality kicks in and those 500 yard bulls eyes targets are weighed against an empty stew pot that require more than 300 yard skills.

If the preCuster tribes could run 'em down on bareback ponies with bow & arrow or drive 'em over the cliff, and the railroad meat wagons could deliver the buffaloes with 500g of rainbow trajectory lead & the Holy Black in 15# percussion rifles, I'm confident a group of hungry modern citizens with 308s could find a way to keep from starving.

What do you think their success rates were? How many wounded vs how many killed? If they used smoke signals, why do you insist on a telephone?

 

[HB of CJ]

Interesting answers. My Dad was just a kid during the hard great depression in the mid 1930s. He lived in SW Virginia. All the game was shot out in less than 4 years. Consider the population density then in the Blue Ridge with today within Oregon.

We do not hand load. No time. No real cost savings considering all things. We use up fresh factory ammo. Easiest and the cheapest. An interesting note: We are preppers. Been doing it since who knows when. Only about 10% gets spent on prepping.

Out of that 10% only about 10% of that gets spent on gun, ammo, practice and what ever. Only 10% of 10%. That does not leave much. We are not Mormons. Just our way of trying to figure out that logical sane balance regarding SHTF and ITEOTWAWKI.

Respectfully. It probably will not matter much what you have. What matters is that you have it. Time is golden. I still wish I knew more about survival gardening. Things are getting very interesting world wide. We will see. Do no harm. Try to help others.

 

[41mag]

good questions;

on the other hand, how many of those who are likely to survive in our hypothetical scenario, will be saved by a magic fractions of an inch and extra 50 yards of satisfactory terminal ballistics?

I don't think we have an argument here, rather a difference of focus on a particular set of problems.

If those high-end performance ballistics are the overwhelmingly required spec equipment for the few actually paying for Safari, how do all those tribal support elements eat in the off season?

 

[Boboclown]

If those high-end performance ballistics are the overwhelmingly required spec equipment for the few actually paying for Safari, how do all those tribal support elements eat in the off season?

People used to hunt in groups throughout history. Different tactics for different animals.

 

[The Heretic]

Oh, and yes. As a hunter first and doomsday prepper tenth, cartridge performance is WAY more important to me than being able to find milsurp ball ammo. Anyone who shoots longer ranges and in any kind of wind would agree.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

There are a lot of criteria for both hunting and defense firearms beyond the performance of the chambering. My highest priority is self-defense. Just about any intermediate power cartridge (e.g., .30-30) and above is adequate for hunting west of the Cascades. Long distance shots not common here, and most of those that are encountered can usually be done with .308 or .30-06, skill/experience in distance shooting being more important (IMO) than the chambering.

More importantly, as I said, without ammo, a firearm is just an expensive club. I would rather have my father's hunting rifle (.30-06 '03 Springfield) with ammo than the finest rifle of any sort in the best chambering without ammo. Whether for hunting or defense.

 

[HB of CJ]

41mag hits the target. Thank you. We are in SW OR USA by choice. Moved out of CA back in 1987. No matter where you go, there you are. Fortunate to be here. But guess what? Nothing has happened yet. But potentials exist. Wildfires down here.

Every season we hold our breath. Three close calls in 16 years. We keep bug out bags in the SUVs. Fires for us are real. First hand experience as to what happens to sane folks. Not good. We have seen some horrible insane behavior from sane people.

Which leads to my failed feeble point. We have too many people living here. All of us dependent upon technology. Few farm. Fewer know how. Most only have a fews days food supply and water. That and too many guns of all description. Nasty combination.

 

[The Heretic]

The problem I have with a 308 or really almost any cartridge is that to me there are two loadings, one for semi autos and one for others
A perfect example i have three 30-06's two bolt actions and a browning bar. The two bolts will shoot slower warmer rounds than my bar will almost making the 30-06 in the bar perform like a lessor round comparatively. The platform will make a lot of differemce in your choice in my opinion
In a bolt or single shot I will always take a 30-06 in all other actions i will choose the 308 i am not governed by NATO standards.

This is why I have a manual action in all of the military calibers (still looking/thinking about what to get in 5.56 beyond my Savage 24, maybe another CZ, but a BLR takedown would be nice too), and any semi I have can be worked manually.

 

[P7M13]

If you want to be boring, go with the 308. Between the two, I'd choose the -06.
I have two 308s and prefer to hunt with my 7mm rifles. Were I to buy another hunting rifle, it would be the -06.
However, the OP is from the Bluegrass State. Lots of history there to have fun with.
For a modern firearm, I would move the club in the direction of M1 Garand in -06 (that is, if you can carry 8 rounds into the field in KY).
To be even more "cool", which is the antithesis of "tacticool", I'd go with a 58 caliber Kentucky Rifle.
You'd be walking around with a serious bit of history in your hands.

 

[Boboclown]

If you want to be boring, go with the 308.

.308 is only boring if the gun you get is boring. Its all about dem FAL and Galils bruh.

Honestly, if going .30-06 you should go bolt action to reach its potential.

 

[The Heretic]

.308 is only boring if the gun you get is boring. Its all about dem FAL and Galils bruh.

Honestly, if going .30-06 you should go bolt action to reach its potential.

I find very few firearms boring.

 

[DuneHopper]

Id say a 7mm Mag, is a great over all caliber, and the recoil is very manageable.
I brought this up because its a caliber many overlook but is a great over all round.
The 7mm Mag ammo can be found pretty much anywhere as well. And a basic Rem 700
in that caliber can be had around $400.00 or so.