Oregon Gun Laws. A Guide In Plain English (book)

timbernet · Jun 23, 2009

I think this book falls under the "Training" category, hopefully this is the right sub-forum....

So I bought OFF's book "Oregon Gun Laws. A Guide In Plain English" and while there are some good bits of info in there if I had to do it again, I would not buy the book.

First, I support the OFF 110% and send them donations from time to time. They are a better ally to our rights in Oregon than the NRA. So don't take my opinion of this book as my opinion of the OFF in general.

It seems like they spent a lot of time on subjects that don't apply to most of us... ie: felon in possession of firearms, getting your rights back after a felony, domestic violence, etc, etc. Open carry issues and the grey area of carrying in car, etc, etc.. Buying guns at gun shows, private sales, background checks, etc, etc.

And then we get to the area where I wanted to know the most: use of deadly force. And what does the book say? "There are a lot of different ways of interpreting the law, so here is the ORS- read it" Umm, I have read the ORS. I read it online for free, but I wanted some of the legal talk deciphered in the way that they deciphered buying guns in Oregon and gun show laws, etc. I wanted to hear about different case law, etc. Half the book is ORS printed out...

I understand that judges, lawyers, and juries can have their own interpretation of the use of deadly force laws - but I would have liked to hear what OFFs interpretation of the laws were.

For example, this law:

161.209
Use of physical force in defense of a person

Except as provided in ORS 161.215 (Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person) and 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person), a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose

That "third person" line is something I've wondered about... When I took my CHL class it was right after that under-21 nightclub shooting in Portland and someone asked the instructor what they would have done in that situation. And he said it was a tough case on multiple levels.

He said that if you were walking downtown and heard gunshots but didn't see the incident, run the other direction or wait, hide, observe to then give cops information. Because you don't know the story of the incident - who is the victim, etc- it could have been a gang shooting, etc -- it could have been another CHL defending themselves, etc.

BUT! He said that if you witnessed a random act of violence and had enough information to know that it was not caused by someone antagonizing the shooter, etc -- then you defending that third-party would justified.

BUT! He then said that what if one of the other spectators saw you do that - they might see you with a gun and shoot you... so it is a tough situation to be in.

For me, my primary concern is the safety of myself and those whom I care for. If I can safely evade a situation that involves someone else - I will. I don't ever, ever, ever want to draw my gun. That said... there are some situations where you defending a third-party might be the right thing to do... sadly those situations have so many variables it is hard to come up with a scenario that you can put in a book...

... boy, I kinda took a side road from talking about the book... In summary, there were some useful chapters in the book - but there was also a lot of information that does not apply to a lot of shooters and I wish there was a little more information about use of force.

Cougfan2 · Jun 23, 2009

I haven't read the OFF book, but if you want something that focuses particularly in the ramifications of use of deadly force, read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". Food for thought.

timbernet · Jun 23, 2009

Cougfan2 said:
I haven't read the OFF book, but if you want something that focuses particularly in the ramifications of use of deadly force, read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". Food for thought.

Thanks - added to my Amazon cart.

BUZO71 · Jun 23, 2009

I bought the book even though I don't support OFF. If you can get beyond the propaganda Kevin espouses, it has a few pieces of information if you knew nothing about the CHl laws.

Massad's book is much better, written by someone who knows. I think its a cop out to say 'well, read the ORS and every situation is different.' save your money and go to a class...

OFADAN · Jun 23, 2009

BUZO71 said:
save your money and go to a class...

Obviously I'm going to concur 100% with Buz's sentiment...training is key here. But unfortunately many folks teaching the CHL classes today are as ignorant about Oregon law and actual test cases as the students themselves. How do I know? Because I attend these courses myself when I can to find out what is being taught and I talk to about 1200 students a year who come to OFA to train and ask them what they learned and what they know - assuming they didn't train at OFA.

OFA is one of the few schools in the region I'm aware of where the Oregon Law portion is about 2.5 to 3 hours by itself and taught by a former Criminal Prosecuter who is now a civil attorney who also teaches at the Oregon Police Academy as a Firearms Instructor - and who has experienced combat first hand and has the scars to prove it. Yea this sounds like a shameless plug and perhaps it is...but one of the reasons our BHS class is so popular is because experienced CHL holders who have been through someone else's 45 minute to 3 hour CHL course are realizing there is more to this than gun safety and talking about the different types of firearms to purchase. After just the 3 hour legal portion alone...these experienced CHL holders validate to us what is being left out of many typical CHL classes.

If you want to learn about the use of force, the laws pertaining to conceal carry and what to do after the last shot is fired...you might want to do your research first before you pay the money and go to just any ol' class or read a book. :s0155:

BUZO71 · Jun 23, 2009

Agreed Dan. I have also heard the same. My class dedicates scenario based learning into the CHL class. Of course, it takes longer than 1,2 or 3 hours but my other instructor and I give real world experience that you can't find in most classes. Since I don't look at making money at my classes, it runs until everyone has their questions answered. That's the difference between books and instruction.

Kevin also has his own agenda. Remember people, he is a POLITICAL ACTIVIST. He seems to slant his book to fit his views. I don't endorse his book or his organization but I know he has a following and everyone is entitled to their views.

timbernet · Jun 23, 2009

OFADAN said:
Obviously I'm going to concur 100% with Buz's sentiment...training is key here. But unfortunately many folks teaching the CHL classes today are as ignorant about Oregon law and actual test cases as the students themselves. How do I know? Because I attend these courses myself when I can to find out what is being taught and I talk to about 1200 students a year who come to OFA to train and ask them what they learned and what they know - assuming they didn't train at OFA.

OFA is one of the few schools in the region I'm aware of where the Oregon Law portion is about 2.5 to 3 hours by itself and taught by a former Criminal Prosecuter who is now a civil attorney who also teaches at the Oregon Police Academy as a Firearms Instructor - and who has experienced combat first hand and has the scars to prove it. Yea this sounds like a shameless plug and perhaps it is...but one of the reasons our BHS class is so popular is because experienced CHL holders who have been through someone else's 45 minute to 3 hour CHL course are realizing there is more to this than gun safety and talking about the different types of firearms to purchase. After just the 3 hour legal portion alone...these experienced CHL holders validate to us what is being left out of many typical CHL classes.

If you want to learn about the use of force, the laws pertaining to conceal carry and what to do after the last shot is fired...you might want to do your research first before you pay the money and go to just any ol' class or read a book.

I plan on taking some of OFA's classes... sadly not this summer. Too busy with work, etc.

Only reason I bought the book was because I've heard from others that it deciphered the gun laws.... I thought "great!" ... next time I will do more research....